Seniority Travel

[betster]

Is this actually a problem in normal times when there are a lot of flights? Commuters are only going to a few specific places. Vacationers are generally going somewhere different. Not everyone can choose to live in their base. Frankly WJ paystubs don't allow for it.

[Ex DC10 Driver]

Time for Seniority Travel....get over yourselves this damn union mentality that is taking over! The top get everything screw everybody else.

[co-joe]

Not sure why commuters deserve priority. They (me) made a choice not to live where they work. Why should that be rewarded? Some flights have 10+ commuters on them, I think it would be grossly unfair for a person traveling on vacation to be bumped on flight after flight by commuters.

Usually people with this opinion bought their house in yyz or yvr for 500 k and the rest of us should just pony up 2 million now for the same house or pay 4k a month for a bachelor pad with a murphy bed in a bad neighborhood and just accept our lot in life. You may as well just say "let them eat cake".

[Loon-A-Tic]

Time for Seniority Travel....get over yourselves this damn union mentality that is taking over! The top get everything screw everybody else.

Many hours a spent pontificating on the need to "change & advance" this industry. Many who expound on this need would defend to their death one of its original forms of oppression, seniority. They would be the first to holler loud and long if any efforts where made to update, change or alter to this dinosaur of inequity. I agree that seniority is simple, straight forward and clear however it feeds the "have's" at the expense of the "have not's". It's a shame we can't come up with a better mousetrap this day in age. It's a travesty when someone with 25-30 years "invested" in a industry runs the risk of starting all over again thru no fault of their own. For an industry that preaches "standards" operationally but shuns it professionally the irony is palpable.

[Ex DC10 Driver]

[Impact]

Time for Seniority Travel....get over yourselves this damn union mentality that is taking over! The top get everything screw everybody else.

You do realize Westjet has been one of the most "junior friendly" airlines in the entire industry, don't you?

[Ex DC10 Driver]

Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.

As all commuters should with their respective employer, now that's something worth negotiating for.

[Impact]

Yes, and I benefited from this during my first 6 years....I want to ensure that pilots after me also get to benefit. WestJet was always known for the one team concept where all benefited. Now the union is here and some of the senior who benefited throughout their ‘junior’ time at WestJet want their cake and eat it too. I want to share some of the spoils. When I came I was able to get some Christmas’s off, had a little summer vacation and yes I have commuted to Calgary, to Toronto and now back to Calgary after being demoted/bumped down to Encore as a Captain. When I am recalled to WestJet I know it will be to Toronto initially until I can hold Calgary F/O, then back to Toronto when I upgrade. I am not moving my family every time I am awarded a new base as will not a thousand other commuters. We have pilots shuffled all over right now due to this pandemic. Commuting is a reality for 50% of our pilot group currently and they should take priority over vacationing WestJetters.

First off, thanks for the respectful response. It doesn't do anyone any good when the BS is dialed up into the redzone.

I'd like to pose few other questions for you. Since the inception of WJ, who do think has benefited more? Junior or senior segments of the pilot population? Which demographic has had the majority of the negotiating capital expended for its benefit? Please take into account everything. Ports, Flica, bases, scheduling, YOS, commuting, etc. I'm honestly curious to see what your perception is.

You may be surprised at how many common viewpoints you and I share. I invite you to look at my posting history to see where I stand on some issues.

[ALPApolicy]

I don't have an opinion on the seniority thing although it would have me near the top.of the list on most stay flights I take.

As far as getting priority for commuters, what does the pilot group have to give up in order for that to happen? We are in a "nothing for free" bargaining relationship with the company now so a commuting benefit, which only benefits part of the pilot group, will come at the expense of something else.

I'm a commuter most of the time, so I understand the pressures of commuting. Not sure why I should get priority over people traveling for another reason.

[Tolip]

Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas

[Loon-A-Tic]

I don't have an opinion on the seniority thing although it would have me near the top.of the list on most stay flights I take.

As far as getting priority for commuters, what does the pilot group have to give up in order for that to happen? We are in a "nothing for free" bargaining relationship with the company now so a commuting benefit, which only benefits part of the pilot group, will come at the expense of something else.

I'm a commuter most of the time, so I understand the pressures of commuting. Not sure why I should get priority over people traveling for another reason.

As I'm not a commuter this has no "direct" impact on my quality of life. However to address the question of value to all lets consider the following. It may present the opportunity for home ownership much earlier given that most pilot bases are in high market value areas of the country. As for those further along in their career it could equally offer unique quality of life residential options later in life. I'm thinking semi-retirement to areas like the east coast where the cost of living is a bit lower. So yes the concept may have a bit broader appeal that expected, not everyone wants to live in the "hub" cities regardless of their seniority number

[Mach1]

The vast majority of YYZ based pilots do not live in Toronto proper. Somehow they make it work. Get over it.

Posted with all the deep thought and consideration of all the issues faced by people one would expect from you.

[Mach1]

I'm not sure why it has to be an either/or situation. I am sure there could be a system that is better than either of the current alternatives if people wanted to sit down and talk about it. Don't forget, the pilots aren't the only commuters in the company.

I'm also not sure why something needs to be given up to prioritize commuters, we actually had that for a while and gave up nothing to get it. Then it was taken away because... well, no reason really, it just was.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas

I am a non-commuter who is currently on furlough who is advocating for active commuters.

Why are you so mad?

[ALPApolicy]

Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas

Lighten up Francis. We can talk about whatever we want here because we'll, it's a forum. Perhaps if we all sign up for YOUR forum we could talk about what YOU want us to talk about.

Shit happens in life. Doesn't mean life stops. Even if people are laid off, there are still issues that will pop up from time to time. If things are going to bother you just by reading, my be time to step away from the computer. Nothing is worth your peace of mind.

[Tolip]

Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas

I am a non-commuter who is currently on furlough who is advocating for active commuters.

Why are you so mad?

I think it's just incredibly selfish during a time where so many in the company are struggling (especially those with lower seniority who are now either laid off or displaced) to suggest that those with higher seniority deserve some additional travel privileges when it comes commuting or regular travel. Like who does this benefit? and surely their is better use of our unions negotiationing powers at this time. I'm not mad, just suggesting that we should keep our eyes fixed on recalls throughout the company

[pacman007]

Well I have to disagree, having been at 3 companies with layoffs, you should never bring back pilots at the expense of current active pilots. What will bring people back is more flying. Period. Sucks to be laid off but more flying will bring people back. If active pilots want to improve there working conditions i say do it.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Wow, this whole discussion just wreaks of priviledge and entitlement. Anyone on here that actually thinks this is a priority right now as half the company is laid off/displaced should be ashamed of themselves. Focus on the real issues fellas

I am a non-commuter who is currently on furlough who is advocating for active commuters.

Why are you so mad?

I think it's just incredibly selfish during a time where so many in the company are struggling (especially those with lower seniority who are now either laid off or displaced) to suggest that those with higher seniority deserve some additional travel privileges when it comes commuting or regular travel. Like who does this benefit? and surely their is better use of our unions negotiationing powers at this time. I'm not mad, just suggesting that we should keep our eyes fixed on recalls throughout the company

And there is the issue.

I wasn't clear enough; I am only for setting aside a certain amount of unsold seats for commuters.

[Tolip]

I am a non-commuter who is currently on furlough who is advocating for active commuters.

Why are you so mad?

I think it's just incredibly selfish during a time where so many in the company are struggling (especially those with lower seniority who are now either laid off or displaced) to suggest that those with higher seniority deserve some additional travel privileges when it comes commuting or regular travel. Like who does this benefit? and surely their is better use of our unions negotiationing powers at this time. I'm not mad, just suggesting that we should keep our eyes fixed on recalls throughout the company

And there is the issue.

I wasn't clear enough; I am only for setting aside a certain amount of unsold seats for commuters.

I actually read your comment. Your thoughts are actually spot on mate, 100%. I was casting more of my shade toward the earlier comments in the thread lol

[Tolip]

Well I have to disagree, having been at 3 companies with layoffs, you should never bring back pilots at the expense of current active pilots. What will bring people back is more flying. Period. Sucks to be laid off but more flying will bring people back. If active pilots want to improve there working conditions i say do it.

Everyone should try to improve their working conditions, ofcoarse. But not at the expense of others, those with lower seniority are the ones suffering through this pandemic downturn, through either layoffs, equipment chages/base chages massive decreases of wage to something almost unlivable. And for those who now also want to add seniority based travel privileges? I just think that it is really something; to ask for something that would only benefit those at the top of the list. Imagine being laid off for over a year, getting recalled to a base that is not your own and then getting bumped off a commuting flight because of a higher seniority standby pilot is heading for vacay. Seniority based travel privileges would hurt more then it would help, and this discussion is just another thing distracting from more important things. Swoop flying out of yyz, pasco taking westjet and encore routes, training being done out of order for bumpdowns plus the hundred and hundreds of laid of pilots that need to get back to work. And I know you cant just force recalls, they will come when the flying comes and I'm not asking for concessions from the top. But the top should definitely not be asking for concessions from the bottom. That's crazy crazy

[Impact]

Everyone should try to improve their working conditions, ofcoarse. But not at the expense of others, ...................... But the top should definitely not be asking for concessions from the bottom. That's crazy crazy

Was it OK when the bottom was asking for concessions from the top?

I threw out a few questions a couple of comments up, and really nobody has responded. Would you care to?

[ALPApolicy]

There may be pilots who are never recalled. Who knows what size WJ will be in a few years. But the pilots who are working are not going to stand still in negotiating working conditions because pilots are laid off. That’s ridiculous. If the current pilots who are entitled to vote on a new contract decide they want seniority for monthly schedule bidding, vacation bidding, and standby travel, then that’s what it will be.

Life isn’t fair. And then you die. The sooner you accept those two facts, the more at peace you will be.

Shalom

[Babar350]

You seem to enjoy this pandemic.

There may be pilots who are never recalled. Who knows what size WJ will be in a few years. But the pilots who are working are not going to stand still in negotiating working conditions because pilots are laid off. That’s ridiculous. If the current pilots who are entitled to vote on a new contract decide they want seniority for monthly schedule bidding, vacation bidding, and standby travel, then that’s what it will be.

Life isn’t fair. And then you die. The sooner you accept those two facts, the more at peace you will be.

Shalom

You seem to enjoy this pandemic.
I guess you are in the top 10%.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

There may be pilots who are never recalled.

Shalom

Chag samaech!

You're absolutely correct that there may be pilots who are never recalled, although, the way the market is/was/is forecast to become, we will all be offered recall by the end of 2022.

The US is short on pilots and wherever the US goes, Canada is sure to follow.

Be optimistic and have a great day!