Will this industry ever recover?

[pitottubey]

Well said. Just out of curiosity, what are the primary reasons for people that "won't get into AC"? Is it lack of a degree? bad attitude/reputation? Too old?

And to address OP it seems like nearly all regional pilots have been recalled at this point, with some airlines like porter and flair even expanding. While covid isn't fully gone yet, I would imagine all of the regionals will be hiring off the street in 2 years at the latest.

[fish4life]

Well said. Just out of curiosity, what are the primary reasons for people that "won't get into AC"? Is it lack of a degree? bad attitude/reputation? Too old?

And to address OP it seems like nearly all regional pilots have been recalled at this point, with some airlines like porter and flair even expanding. While covid isn't fully gone yet, I would imagine all of the regionals will be hiring off the street in 2 years at the latest.

Honestly AC hiring is a bit of a mystery sometimes. I know of some incredible people and pilots that couldn’t get a job there while others I wouldn’t put family on an aircraft they are operating. Don’t get me wrong there is lots of great people at AC but I also know of some that could never get a job for one reason or another. (I blame the automated psychology tests)

[EPR]

Well said. Just out of curiosity, what are the primary reasons for people that "won't get into AC"? Is it lack of a degree? bad attitude/reputation? Too old?

And to address OP it seems like nearly all regional pilots have been recalled at this point, with some airlines like porter and flair even expanding. While covid isn't fully gone yet, I would imagine all of the regionals will be hiring off the street in 2 years at the latest.

Honestly AC hiring is a bit of a mystery sometimes. I know of some incredible people and pilots that couldn’t get a job there while others I wouldn’t put family on an aircraft they are operating. Don’t get me wrong there is lots of great people at AC but I also know of some that could never get a job for one reason or another. (I blame the automated psychology tests)

Totally agree, there's a book by Richard S Drury called "Flightlines"' and a chapter called "Stick and Rudder".... #TakeHead!

[EPR]

Enjoy you dirty dogs!
!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lCFaSL ... 6A&index=2

[alkaseltzer]

Well said. Just out of curiosity, what are the primary reasons for people that "won't get into AC"? Is it lack of a degree? bad attitude/reputation? Too old?

And to address OP it seems like nearly all regional pilots have been recalled at this point, with some airlines like porter and flair even expanding. While covid isn't fully gone yet, I would imagine all of the regionals will be hiring off the street in 2 years at the latest.

Honestly AC hiring is a bit of a mystery sometimes. I know of some incredible people and pilots that couldn’t get a job there while others I wouldn’t put family on an aircraft they are operating. Don’t get me wrong there is lots of great people at AC but I also know of some that could never get a job for one reason or another. (I blame the automated psychology tests)

Deeper mystery than what happened to MH370.

[Luscombe8a]

I thought the same for a while now. I'm at the tail end of my career, looking forward to fly fishing and finally getting around to the never-ending "Honey-do" list...and then WHAM...furloughed indefinitely. I wasn't planning on retiring now, and I do intend to go back when recalled. What this did for me was to destroy any aspirations I had for early retirement; I'll be working until they drag me out of the cockpit kicking and screaming. This is not because of my love for the industry, but rather economic reasons. This was an Industry I truly loved, but didn't love me back. I had five layoffs (including Covid). I had been lied to and misused/abused by employers throughout my career. Would I have done it all over again, you bet. I can't think of a better bunch of folks than the ones that I had the pleasure of flying with over the decades. I got to see so much of the world from the cockpit of various airplanes from Supercubs to 737's. I suppose I would be in a much better position to retire had I been a Quality Assurance Tester in a brewery or even a Teacher, however I don't think I would have had nearly as much fun.

I really do hope this industry will recover. What it may look like will be different from 2019, but it will recover in it's own image. Let's get back to work.

[HSH17]

I thought the same for a while now. I'm at the tail end of my career, looking forward to fly fishing and finally getting around to the never-ending "Honey-do" list...and then WHAM...furloughed indefinitely. I wasn't planning on retiring now, and I do intend to go back when recalled. What this did for me was to destroy any aspirations I had for early retirement; I'll be working until they drag me out of the cockpit kicking and screaming. This is not because of my love for the industry, but rather economic reasons. This was an Industry I truly loved, but didn't love me back. I had five layoffs (including Covid). I had been lied to and misused/abused by employers throughout my career. Would I have done it all over again, you bet. I can't think of a better bunch of folks than the ones that I had the pleasure of flying with over the decades. I got to see so much of the world from the cockpit of various airplanes from Supercubs to 737's. I suppose I would be in a much better position to retire had I been a Quality Assurance Tester in a brewery or even a Teacher, however I don't think I would have had nearly as much fun.

I really do hope this industry will recover. What it may look like will be different from 2019, but it will recover in it's own image. Let's get back to work.

And unfortunately it’s that exact mindset of “I could never do anything else for a living but fly” that allows employers to consistently make working conditions for employees worse and worse, even when there’s a “pilot shortage”. I agree on that statement of the WORKERS in the industry being fantastic and great to work with, but management seems to enjoy participating in the race to the bottom, especially in Canadian aviation. There’s gonna be a lot of bright people out there who realize this and don’t come back to the industry they once loved. Pretty sad.

[tbayav8er]

I think once everyone is recalled to the airlines, hiring is going to be through the roof again. Just looking at how busy things are getting at the airlines, I think it's a positive sign. As long as the world doesn't get shut down again.

[QKZXKV]

I think once everyone is recalled to the airlines, hiring is going to be through the roof again. Just looking at how busy things are getting at the airlines, I think it's a positive sign. As long as the world doesn't get shut down again.

That "as long as" bit is difficult. The term COVID-22 is already trending.

[tbayav8er]

I think once everyone is recalled to the airlines, hiring is going to be through the roof again. Just looking at how busy things are getting at the airlines, I think it's a positive sign. As long as the world doesn't get shut down again.

That "as long as" bit is difficult. The term COVID-22 is already trending.

Exactly. No one has a crystal ball. I think as long as no more really strict lockdowns/travel restrictions come back, the aviation industry will be in a much better place pretty soon (my speculation would be around new years). If we do get locked down again, and we see interprovincial travel restrictions come back, then things will continue to be crappy.

[BTD]

Hmm. So if things are good, they will be good and if things are bad, they will be bad?

That is a lot of words to say nothing.

P.s. I’m just messing around.

[newlygrounded]

I think once everyone is recalled to the airlines, hiring is going to be through the roof again. Just looking at how busy things are getting at the airlines, I think it's a positive sign. As long as the world doesn't get shut down again.

That "as long as" bit is difficult. The term COVID-22 is already trending.

Exactly. No one has a crystal ball. I think as long as no more really strict lockdowns/travel restrictions come back, the aviation industry will be in a much better place pretty soon (my speculation would be around new years). If we do get locked down again, and we see interprovincial travel restrictions come back, then things will continue to be crappy.

I'm 100% expecting a full shutdown in the winter, rates are already skyrocketing, imagine when everyone is indoors?

[altiplano]

That "as long as" bit is difficult. The term COVID-22 is already trending.

Exactly. No one has a crystal ball. I think as long as no more really strict lockdowns/travel restrictions come back, the aviation industry will be in a much better place pretty soon (my speculation would be around new years). If we do get locked down again, and we see interprovincial travel restrictions come back, then things will continue to be crappy.

I'm 100% expecting a full shutdown in the winter, rates are already skyrocketing, imagine when everyone is indoors?

Why would you expect that?

Already high levels of vaccination.

More vaccinations being required by employers & government.

Mask rules continue widely in most jurisdictions.

Great weather and everyone outside.

Why are cases skyrocketing?

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Why are cases skyrocketing?

• Vaccines don't stop you from getting sick; they reduce the severity and length of symptoms (less likely to need hospitalization or funeral)
• Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.
• Unvaccinated (35% of Canada's population) account for 70% of new COVID cases. (Is is the vaccine or is it the associated I don't care attitude?) [Yes, that number is not precise, but it fluctuates around there]

I'll re-emphasize, even if 50 out of 100 new cases were in fully vaccinated people, 65 out of 100 Canadians are fully vaccinated. If you cannot comprehend that concept, you are missing a key mathematical idea that is translatable to your aviation career. Every argument that ignores that makes you look like the kid in school who thinks that 5 nickels is more than 4 dimes because you have more coins.

[BTD]

Why are cases skyrocketing?

• Vaccines don't stop you from getting sick; they reduce the severity and length of symptoms (less likely to need hospitalization or funeral)
• Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.
• Unvaccinated (35% of Canada's population) account for 70% of new COVID cases. (Is is the vaccine or is it the associated I don't care attitude?) [Yes, that number is not precise, but it fluctuates around there]

I'll re-emphasize, even if 50 out of 100 new cases were in fully vaccinated people, 65 out of 100 Canadians are fully vaccinated. If you cannot comprehend that concept, you are missing a key mathematical idea that is translatable to your aviation career. Every argument that ignores that makes you look like the kid in school who thinks that 5 nickels is more than 4 dimes because you have more coins.

I’m not sure your realize what Altiplano just did. We know from reading he is not fond of many of the policies put in place regarding covid. He asked a number of questions with a sarcastic tone. Then he got you to make his case for him. His questions were specific to case numbers.

As you point out. Vaccines don’t prevent “cases”. As you point out, people aren’t adhering to mask policy as strictly as before. As you point out, many people no longer have a caring attitude.

So…. If I may be so bold as to finish his line of thinking. If the above is true, why are we still keeping track of cases if they don’t mean much anymore. What good is a mask policy if people aren’t following it? What good are any policies if people no longer care and don’t follow them anyway?

You made his point for him.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Why are cases skyrocketing?

• Vaccines don't stop you from getting sick; they reduce the severity and length of symptoms (less likely to need hospitalization or funeral)
• Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.
• Unvaccinated (35% of Canada's population) account for 70% of new COVID cases. (Is is the vaccine or is it the associated I don't care attitude?) [Yes, that number is not precise, but it fluctuates around there]

I'll re-emphasize, even if 50 out of 100 new cases were in fully vaccinated people, 65 out of 100 Canadians are fully vaccinated. If you cannot comprehend that concept, you are missing a key mathematical idea that is translatable to your aviation career. Every argument that ignores that makes you look like the kid in school who thinks that 5 nickels is more than 4 dimes because you have more coins.

I’m not sure your realize what Altiplano just did. We know from reading he is not fond of many of the policies put in place regarding covid. He asked a number of questions with a sarcastic tone. Then he got you to make his case for him. His questions were specific to case numbers.

As you point out. Vaccines don’t prevent “cases”. As you point out, people aren’t adhering to mask policy as strictly as before. As you point out, many people no longer have a caring attitude.

So…. If I may be so bold as to finish his line of thinking. If the above is true, why are we still keeping track of cases if they don’t mean much anymore. What good is a mask policy if people aren’t following it? What good are any policies if people no longer care and don’t follow them anyway?

You made his point for him.

I will gladly make the point that vaccines don't stop you from getting sick as many times as I need to.

I did not make any other point other than the majority of new cases are (in raw numbers and proportionally) in the unvaccinated population. The idea that it helps him make a point shows me that you did not read and/or understand my bullet points.

[rudder]

It will recover and as predicted and will be 100% but not before 2023 or later depending on global vaccination status.

[altiplano]

Why are cases skyrocketing?

• Vaccines don't stop you from getting sick; they reduce the severity and length of symptoms (less likely to need hospitalization or funeral)
• Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.
• Unvaccinated (35% of Canada's population) account for 70% of new COVID cases. (Is is the vaccine or is it the associated I don't care attitude?) [Yes, that number is not precise, but it fluctuates around there]

I'll re-emphasize, even if 50 out of 100 new cases were in fully vaccinated people, 65 out of 100 Canadians are fully vaccinated. If you cannot comprehend that concept, you are missing a key mathematical idea that is translatable to your aviation career. Every argument that ignores that makes you look like the kid in school who thinks that 5 nickels is more than 4 dimes because you have more coins.

LOL...

You're so thick!

There are variables at play that aren't being brought up in your basic methodology which understand as comprehension.

Garbage in, garbage out...

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

You're so thick!

Are you body shaming me?

[QKZXKV]

I think once everyone is recalled to the airlines, hiring is going to be through the roof again. Just looking at how busy things are getting at the airlines, I think it's a positive sign. As long as the world doesn't get shut down again.

That "as long as" bit is difficult. The term COVID-22 is already trending.

Exactly. No one has a crystal ball. I think as long as no more really strict lockdowns/travel restrictions come back, the aviation industry will be in a much better place pretty soon (my speculation would be around new years). If we do get locked down again, and we see interprovincial travel restrictions come back, then things will continue to be crappy.

agreed!

[BTD]

• Vaccines don't stop you from getting sick; they reduce the severity and length of symptoms (less likely to need hospitalization or funeral)
• Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.
• Unvaccinated (35% of Canada's population) account for 70% of new COVID cases. (Is is the vaccine or is it the associated I don't care attitude?) [Yes, that number is not precise, but it fluctuates around there]

I'll re-emphasize, even if 50 out of 100 new cases were in fully vaccinated people, 65 out of 100 Canadians are fully vaccinated. If you cannot comprehend that concept, you are missing a key mathematical idea that is translatable to your aviation career. Every argument that ignores that makes you look like the kid in school who thinks that 5 nickels is more than 4 dimes because you have more coins.

I’m not sure your realize what Altiplano just did. We know from reading he is not fond of many of the policies put in place regarding covid. He asked a number of questions with a sarcastic tone. Then he got you to make his case for him. His questions were specific to case numbers.

As you point out. Vaccines don’t prevent “cases”. As you point out, people aren’t adhering to mask policy as strictly as before. As you point out, many people no longer have a caring attitude.

So…. If I may be so bold as to finish his line of thinking. If the above is true, why are we still keeping track of cases if they don’t mean much anymore. What good is a mask policy if people aren’t following it? What good are any policies if people no longer care and don’t follow them anyway?

You made his point for him.

I will gladly make the point that vaccines don't stop you from getting sick as many times as I need to.

I did not make any other point other than the majority of new cases are (in raw numbers and proportionally) in the unvaccinated population. The idea that it helps him make a point shows me that you did not read and/or understand my bullet points.

I’m not sure you understand what you said. As noted below

I did not make any other point other than the majority of new cases are (in raw numbers and proportionally) in the unvaccinated population.

Except you did.

[*]Mask fatigue. People are less willing to continue strict COVID protocols.

This point is literally a bullet point in your previous post.

[altiplano]

LOL!!!

Screenshot_20210826-140041.png (1.18 MiB) Viewed 7521 times

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

LOL!!!

Screenshot_20210826-140041.png

Jokes on you! I only got one eyebrow...

[altiplano]

LOL!!!

Screenshot_20210826-140041.png

Jokes on you! I only got one eyebrow...

Hahaha.

[Koalemos]

It seems like every week there is either some bad news or some permanent agreement lowering pilot wages another 20% forever.

I once wanted to pursue a pilot career but even in the best 2/3 years in history it seemed your best bet was to drive a forklift for at least a year to make $20,000 a year in the middle of nowhere. I can't imagine how it will be in a few months?

The state of the airline industry in Canada from a pilots perspective is atrocious. And it will get worse. Case in point is that recently the association supposedly representing Air Canada pilots negotiated a 10% PAY CUT for cargo operations. And the pilot group voted YES. This is during a time when cargo demand is increasing.

And yet, supposedly AC is the top of the Canadian airline industry for WAWCON. Pay and contract conditions have steadily gone down in the last 20 years. If things didn’t improve in the boom times, they won’t in the recovery.

In contrast, regional USA airlines are paying more than Air Canada mainline and giving huge bonuses for retention and flow through to their majors due to their recovery.
https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... nal-pilots

That is simply one example. When asked I recommend people not become a pilot in Canada. If they are able to work in the states, then by all means go for it. The states airline industry is in an entirely different place than ours is, and it doesn’t look like that will change.