CTA launches formal probe into Flair

[RustyDeuce]

More info has come to light according to a recent story in the Globe and Mail.

Flair wants the CTA to grant it exclusive dispensation for 18 months to operate with a competitive advantage unavailable to all others who scrupulously follow Canadian foreign ownership rules.

Hmm. What would happen if 60% of WestJet’s board were Delta Airlines appointees, financing came from Delta and most of the fleet was owned by Delta?

Anyone recall what happened to Greyhound Air in May 1996 when they tried the same sort of ownership / control stunt?

Unless Flair attracts a ton of Canadian investment money PDQ and 777 Partners influence is drastically curtailed, this is not going to end well for anyone connected to Flair.

The CTA knows that Flairs 13 tails / capacity can easily be replaced by incumbents, not to mention Lynx, within a few weeks. Long timers will recall that shutdowns / strikes cause chaos for about 2-3 days before things revert to the new normal. No big deal.

Nice to see you alive and posting again.

[RustyDeuce]

Flair grew an airline in violation of foreign ownership rules.
They did it knowing they were in violation.
They now need 18 months to "figure it out".
Nope. Good night Flair.
F*ck around and find out.

[co-joe]

Wondering why they are still hiring with all these going on !

How else are they going to staff the 7 more Max 8's coming in the next 7 weeks? It's business as usual at F8 right now, and that business is expansion. The ULCC market share is only so big, and whoever fills the market first gains the advantage. Onex knows it and that's why they're buying 6 new Max 8's for Swoop.

This is a race to permanently expand the Canadian aviation market. Most ULCC passengers are new to flying commercially in Canada. Where some see the ULCC as the race to the bottom, I see it as actual growth of our industry. AC and WS aren't contracting (Well WS is but they're shrinking to grow Swoop), this is literally the growth of our industry and it means more jobs for pilots in total.

[co-joe]

From the Globe and Mail article:

The airline said it needs more time to address the CTA’s objections to the involvement of 777 Partners, which it said offered stability when no other financial backing was available. ...

That statement is aimed directly at the Canadian government that offered or gave loans to all the other carriers in the market except Flair who received nothing (except CEWS). If 777 hadn't extended that credit, none of this would have happened.

Edit: Thanks DanWEC

[co-joe]

This post intentionally left blank.

[DanWEC]

Edit: I can't reply to the last comment for some reason, the forum keeps merging my comment and the one in the slash quote whenever I try.

It's a nested quote, prob just need an additional "bracket /quote bracket" to close the second level.


Cheers!

[Arnie Pye]

The CTA knows that Flairs 13 tails / capacity can easily be replaced by incumbents, not to mention Lynx, within a few weeks. Long timers will recall that shutdowns / strikes cause chaos for about 2-3 days before things revert to the new normal. No big deal.

Nice to see you alive and posting again.

Interesting that you bring up Lynx as an overnight replacement. Where does their money come from again? Did David Neeleman become a Canadian recently? I don't think that Enerjet 3.0 had any money to buy 40 brand new MAX's. Pretty sure that what is happening to Flair also applies to Lynx. When Westjet is done dragging Flair's name through the mud, Lynx will be next.

[Realitychex]

You are correct in that if Lynx has chosen to pick and choose which Canadian regs and laws they choose to abide by, they too are headed into a stiff wind.

Indigo's m/o is to control what they invest in so we'll see what transpires. If their noses are clean, you can bet your next paycheck they've submitted a blistering letter of complaint to the CTA, together with every other carrier in the US and Canada who play by the rules.

Where did you get the idea DGN is involved with Lynx? He's got his hands full with Azul and Breeze.

[nynybear]

You are correct in that if Lynx has chosen to pick and choose which Canadian regs and laws they choose to abide by, they too are headed into a stiff wind.

Indigo's m/o is to control what they invest in so we'll see what transpires. If their noses are clean, you can bet your next paycheck they've submitted a blistering letter of complaint to the CTA, together with every other carrier in the US and Canada who play by the rules.

Where did you get the idea DGN is involved with Lynx? He's got his hands full with Azul and Breeze.

You've just described the exact same scenario regarding Lynx/F8. They both have significant US investment, but neither have majority foreign ownership. The issue is control and both would not stand a chance without foreign investment . You really think Indigo will let Lynx do whatever it wants? I highly doubt that they will be looking to influence a small percentage when Lynx owes them major $$. This will all be sorted out and Lynx better hope it is just as much as Flair.

The real problem is the Canadian monopoly system. Nobody is asking the right questions as to how are we ever going to get increased options with lower prices without significant foreign investment. That goes for just about everything in Canada.

[fish4life]

You are correct in that if Lynx has chosen to pick and choose which Canadian regs and laws they choose to abide by, they too are headed into a stiff wind.

Indigo's m/o is to control what they invest in so we'll see what transpires. If their noses are clean, you can bet your next paycheck they've submitted a blistering letter of complaint to the CTA, together with every other carrier in the US and Canada who play by the rules.

Where did you get the idea DGN is involved with Lynx? He's got his hands full with Azul and Breeze.

You've just described the exact same scenario regarding Lynx/F8. They both have significant US investment, but neither have majority foreign ownership. The issue is control and both would not stand a chance without foreign investment . You really think Indigo will let Lynx do whatever it wants? I highly doubt that they will be looking to influence a small percentage when Lynx owes them major $$. This will all be sorted out and Lynx better hope it is just as much as Flair.

The real problem is the Canadian monopoly system. Nobody is asking the right questions as to how are we ever going to get increased options with lower prices without significant foreign investment. That goes for just about everything in Canada.

If the Canadian monopoly you are referring to is the airports and their ridiculous AIF’s then I’d agree. How can we ever have affordable tickets when $100 of a round trip ticket it’s AIF/ Nav can fee’s

[nynybear]

You are correct in that if Lynx has chosen to pick and choose which Canadian regs and laws they choose to abide by, they too are headed into a stiff wind.

Indigo's m/o is to control what they invest in so we'll see what transpires. If their noses are clean, you can bet your next paycheck they've submitted a blistering letter of complaint to the CTA, together with every other carrier in the US and Canada who play by the rules.

Where did you get the idea DGN is involved with Lynx? He's got his hands full with Azul and Breeze.

You've just described the exact same scenario regarding Lynx/F8. They both have significant US investment, but neither have majority foreign ownership. The issue is control and both would not stand a chance without foreign investment . You really think Indigo will let Lynx do whatever it wants? I highly doubt that they will be looking to influence a small percentage when Lynx owes them major $$. This will all be sorted out and Lynx better hope it is just as much as Flair.

The real problem is the Canadian monopoly system. Nobody is asking the right questions as to how are we ever going to get increased options with lower prices without significant foreign investment. That goes for just about everything in Canada.

If the Canadian monopoly you are referring to is the airports and their ridiculous AIF’s then I’d agree. How can we ever have affordable tickets when $100 of a round trip ticket it’s AIF/ Nav can fee’s

You are absolutely correct as well! $1200++ YVR-YYC round trip so what's the other $1100 going towards? If overall prices trend down, and dare I say yields for the executives, while independent ULCCs are still around in Canada then you'll know why. Blue eyes may have initially campaigned on breaking up the monopolies to generate more choices at reasonable prices for Canadians but evidently it's gotten worse along with his hair.

[elite]

The comments from Flair seem to indicate they have been in breach of the law for some time and they have known it too. It is ridiculous that they expect to have an additional year and half at the expense of every other airline to further expand and consolidate. Is Flair a real business that has to profit and grow, or does it it just have to make lease payments to 777 while it no doubt amasses hundreds of millions in debt to Canadian companies that supply it what it needs and then someday will be left holding the bag when it files for bankruptcy protection, meanwhile 777 has collected all its lease payments?!

Then there’s the issue of foreign ownership which if changed for one company, will have to be changed for all, and that would make all Canadian airlines vulnerable to take overs overnight. Is accommodating Flair in its private business with an American leasing company worth that much risk for the whole country? There doesn’t seem to be a problem for other airlines!! Good night Flair seems to be right! If a company breaks the law, it has to suffer the consequences.

[rooster]

The comments from Flair seem to indicate they have been in breach of the law for some time and they have known it too. It is ridiculous that they expect to have an additional year and half at the expense of every other airline to further expand and consolidate. Is Flair a real business that has to profit and grow, or does it it just have to make lease payments to 777 while it no doubt amasses hundreds of millions in debt to Canadian companies that supply it what it needs and then someday will be left holding the bag when it files for bankruptcy protection, meanwhile 777 has collected all its lease payments?!

Then there’s the issue of foreign ownership which if changed for one company, will have to be changed for all, and that would make all Canadian airlines vulnerable to take overs overnight. Is accommodating Flair in its private business with an American leasing company worth that much risk for the whole country? There doesn’t seem to be a problem for other airlines!! Good night Flair seems to be right! If a company breaks the law, it has to suffer the consequences.

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?

[goingmissed]

The comments from Flair seem to indicate they have been in breach of the law for some time and they have known it too. It is ridiculous that they expect to have an additional year and half at the expense of every other airline to further expand and consolidate. Is Flair a real business that has to profit and grow, or does it it just have to make lease payments to 777 while it no doubt amasses hundreds of millions in debt to Canadian companies that supply it what it needs and then someday will be left holding the bag when it files for bankruptcy protection, meanwhile 777 has collected all its lease payments?!

Then there’s the issue of foreign ownership which if changed for one company, will have to be changed for all, and that would make all Canadian airlines vulnerable to take overs overnight. Is accommodating Flair in its private business with an American leasing company worth that much risk for the whole country? There doesn’t seem to be a problem for other airlines!! Good night Flair seems to be right! If a company breaks the law, it has to suffer the consequences.

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?

You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.

[rooster]

The comments from Flair seem to indicate they have been in breach of the law for some time and they have known it too. It is ridiculous that they expect to have an additional year and half at the expense of every other airline to further expand and consolidate. Is Flair a real business that has to profit and grow, or does it it just have to make lease payments to 777 while it no doubt amasses hundreds of millions in debt to Canadian companies that supply it what it needs and then someday will be left holding the bag when it files for bankruptcy protection, meanwhile 777 has collected all its lease payments?!

Then there’s the issue of foreign ownership which if changed for one company, will have to be changed for all, and that would make all Canadian airlines vulnerable to take overs overnight. Is accommodating Flair in its private business with an American leasing company worth that much risk for the whole country? There doesn’t seem to be a problem for other airlines!! Good night Flair seems to be right! If a company breaks the law, it has to suffer the consequences.

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?

You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.

Huh? I'm not a Flair pilot bud, what are you on about? What do you expect someone in survival mode to do? They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die? LOL! I don't know what's really going on with this CTA issue. None of you do, but I bet this goes away. If you actually think Flair shuts the doors, by their own volition or not, you're naive and a moron. It's pretty clear given everything they've been through that they are not going anywhere, as much as some of you foaming at the mouth wish they did.

Get on with your lives guys. Christ. Aviation is coming alive again in Canada and pilots are getting hired. Ya'll are whining over ownership? What about duopolies gouging passengers? One with a history of being bailed out by the government with taxpayer money. Sheesh.

Flair says they are disrupting the industry with low fares. I think they are disrupting sour pilots like yourself

I say go Flair go. Same with Lynx. If it stimulates aviation in this country, I'm ALL for it.

[goingmissed]

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?

You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.

Huh? I'm not a Flair pilot bud, what are you on about? What do you expect someone in survival mode to do? They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die? LOL! I don't know what's really going on with this CTA issue. None of you do, but I bet this goes away. If you actually think Flair shuts the doors, by their own volition or not, you're naive and a moron. It's pretty clear given everything they've been through that they are not going anywhere, as much as some of you foaming at the mouth wish they did.

Get on with your lives guys. Christ. Aviation is coming alive again in Canada and pilots are getting hired. Ya'll are whining over ownership? What about duopolies gouging passengers? One with a history of being bailed out by the government with taxpayer money. Sheesh.

Flair says they are disrupting the industry with low fares. I think they are disrupting sour pilots like yourself

I say go Flair go. Same with Lynx. If it stimulates aviation in this country, I'm ALL for it.

I wish Flair the best and I hope that they can move past their alleged indiscretions.

Will you defend the recent Pivot scandal too?

[nynybear]

It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.

[rudder]

My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.

[avi8tr1364]

It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.

The first 13 Max's are leased from 777 Partners, and it looks like with an option to lease a minimum of 24 Max's from 777 Partners. Not sure who owns the 3 NG's.

https://skiesmag.com/news/entrepreneuri ... disruptor/

[55+]

My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.

I suspect your analysis is quite correct. Rest assured the CTA won’t grant Flair a year and half to present a corrective action plan, it will be a short leash. The CTA have knowledgeable people and from what I understand of their structure they have an uncanny ability to drill down through corporate structures and are very good at what they do. Insiders told me intimidation against them doesn’t work as some corporate entities found out.

[SPR]

So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing.

WestJet and Jazz didn't receive anything besides CEWS from the government, which is exactly what Flair got. Transat and Sunwing took out LEEFF loans, which was also available to Flair, but Flair chose not to pursue it. That's not anyone else's fault. AC signed an agreement with the government for loans and share dilution that WestJet found too onerous for their own needs, and I imagine such an agreement would have been available to Flair had they pursued it and had an operation that was financially viable; the fact that they didn't get such a deal means either Flair decided not to go after it, in which case it would be their own fault, or the company was on such terrible footing that the government didn't see any return on the investment, in which case it reflects very poorly on their financial situation.

They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die?

See above regarding "everyone else" getting government assistance. As for breaking the law in regards to save oneself, would you say the same about a pilot continuing to fly after losing his or her medical in order to keep earning an income? Would you say the same about an AME continuing to fix airplanes after having his or her licence pulled? Would you say the same about WestJet or Air Canada knowingly violating the CARs in order to earn a profit? After all, rules are just dumb rules and can be ignored when one doesn't agree with them!

My prediction is that the CTA will propose remedial action for Flair consistent with current regulations. Among other things - compliance with BOD population/voting rights/etc.

The ball will be back in Flair’s court.

The CTA has the hammer. Not Flair. And the CTA is a government agency, not some tool of the government of the day.

If any of the financiers do not like the remedial structure, they can always withdraw.

I think this is precisely right. I think 777 received the board seats as a condition of their investment, and that any solutions proposed by the CTA will be distasteful to them. Any structure that takes control away from 777 will result in them taking their ball and going home, so it won't necessarily be that Flair's licence is pulled; they may just lose their financing and airplanes.

[Flightgame]

The sourness from some of you. So other airlines in Canada get money from the government, and Flair got nothing. 777 partners was there financially. You think Flair was going to say "no it's not right, it's not fair"? Nah. They were in survival mode when the government turned their back. I say they are responsible and the rest of you need to calm the eff down. This has created jobs in Canada for pilots. Why you mad bro? Freakin canadian pilots. Selfish group eh?

You might as well sign your post off with "a pissed off Flair pilot."

The regulations are there for a reason and unfortunately, it's not just those who are choosing to violate them that are going to be hurt.

I am sorry that you might get the short end of the stick.

Huh? I'm not a Flair pilot bud, what are you on about? What do you expect someone in survival mode to do? They got no help from the government when everyone else did. f you were in a position to save yourself, if it meant breaching the law, you'd say no and let yourself die? LOL! I don't know what's really going on with this CTA issue. None of you do, but I bet this goes away. If you actually think Flair shuts the doors, by their own volition or not, you're naive and a moron. It's pretty clear given everything they've been through that they are not going anywhere, as much as some of you foaming at the mouth wish they did.

Get on with your lives guys. Christ. Aviation is coming alive again in Canada and pilots are getting hired. Ya'll are whining over ownership? What about duopolies gouging passengers? One with a history of being bailed out by the government with taxpayer money. Sheesh.

Flair says they are disrupting the industry with low fares. I think they are disrupting sour pilots like yourself

I say go Flair go. Same with Lynx. If it stimulates aviation in this country, I'm ALL for it.

Completely agree with this. There are finally jobs in the market and employers are starting to value their employees. If Flair shuts down, we will be exploited again

So go Flair !

[nynybear]

Wow you must have some pretty sweet insider info because as far as I'm concerned - and what's available to the public - there has not been any guilty conviction->fine/penalties nor extensive details listing CTA findings etc.. But hey, once again, why let the facts get in the way of some sensational stories. You're either desperately trying to stoke the flames of your own fear or really stupid/naive to be basing your assumptions on news media stories. Maybe both. There is presently significant doubt that anybody protesting negatively here or on news media is actually a conscientious objector and neutral party within the industry. Much more likely employees of a competitor company who would love to see the competition go under, thus rather short-sightedly drive their own terms and conditions lower as well. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. When did Canadian Aviation get so cynical and when did Pilots get so self-destructive? It's pretty sad to see. Shutting down an Airline for interpreted 'control' details would be very interesting to see as it's plays out especially when less than half the board seats are actually filled at the moment and there are zero safety issues at stake. In addition if you think that 777 Partners, or any other foreign investor, will dump their investment because of a one seat imbalance on a board and run to the hills with absolutely zero ROI then please for God's sakes do not offer any financial advice to anybody ever. But by all means keep posting because I think you're funny.

[fish4life]

The kook aid at Flair must have been even more spiked than what westjet used to serve.
It’s almost like the former majority shareholder suing 777 and the ceo didn’t happen

[canadianpilot101]

It's easy to research and you'll find that Flair only leases 25% of their aircraft from 777 Partners but hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good (AC, WJ fuelled) story. Some of you haters posting here need to get a life. Image if the government shuts down an airline for not taking their NOT offered bailout! Meanwhile my hard earned tax dollars go to bailing out the 2 most greedy airlines in the western hemisphere. More airlines = more pilot/FA/engineer etc... jobs. It's a good thing so relax.

The first 13 Max's are leased from 777 Partners, and it looks like with an option to lease a minimum of 24 Max's from 777 Partners. Not sure who owns the 3 NG's.

https://skiesmag.com/news/entrepreneuri ... disruptor/

This is incorrect information