Pilot Supply VS Publicly Funded Flight Schools

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:54 pm

Yes I know, but before me it was not subsidized and to the best of my knowledge it was the only program in that college not subsidized.

I know that the other colleges have subsudized flying. But I did too, with my grant money, even though I went to flying school/club.

Timone123 · Post by **Timone123** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:54 pm

Interesting topic I must say, but before complaining about how much money the taxpayer is dishing out here have you considered how much of our money is blown away in other areas by our system. MedEvac flights to and from all the reservations for example cost a fortune. I'm not saying that they should not deserve proper medical care, but supporting many of these remote communities that are now relics from a bygone trading era (e.g. Hudson's Bay Company) is costing us an astronomical amount of money. We should work on a plan to slowly incorporate these communities and bring them closer to civilization if they want to stay supported by the government. I have flown quite a few of these flights in my time up North and some of them are a complete waste of $$. Example: Got highly intoxicated, got on my snowmobile and rode it like a madman into a snow bank at 3.00 a.m. and hurt my arm and I need an aircraft to come and fly me to proper civilization so that I can get fixed up in order to get back and do it all over again and again. What do I care, I dont pay for the plane ride and if they fly me to a big city I can do some serious shopping while I recover - a new fender for the snowmobile perhaps? oh wait I think I get a new one next year from Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer.
My point is this:
With so much of the tax payer's $$ spent senselessly, funding for Aviation Colleges is well within the realm of reason. Just my 2 cents and yes I realize that the whole remote communities issue is quite the topic for discussion.

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:21 pm

x-wind: i'm pretty sure the colleges you're thinking of aren't quite subsidized the way the aforementioned are. i get an OSAP loan from the government and a bursary/grant, but that's because i'm attending an accredited college. we pay a typical college tuition which covers our classes, such as ground school, maths, physics, accounting, etc. our actual flight training is completely paid for by the ontario government.

what you seem to be insinuating is that you're using your grant money to cover part of your flight training. i use part of my grant/bursary to pay for my living expenses but i don't refer to my living expenses as subsidized.

Hoju · Post by **Hoju** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:47 pm

i also went to a subsidized flight school, it ended up costing me about 30 G's when you factor in living expenses etc. etc.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:52 pm

While on the topic of the government spending of taxpayers money, how about the 1 billion dollars they put into the absolutely useless gun registry? Thats a lot of flying time right there folks.

ST

Hoju · Post by **Hoju** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:54 pm

Hey redneck, is the college still flying with the strike and all, I ask because when i was at the college they were talking about going on strike and werent sure if the flying was going to be grounded

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 pm

No, we arent flying

. The instructors can, but the senior instructors are not allowed in the building, so we have noone to act as Duty Instructor and run the show. I know at least one, if not more of the junior instructors has been forced to leave due to the lack of income.

ST

Hoju · Post by **Hoju** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:00 pm

What do you mean one was forced to leave because of lack of income

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:02 pm

They aren't getting paid while on strike. Pay stops but bills dont, so he had to go elsewhere to pay the bills. Its a shame, strikes really dont help anyone.

Hoju · Post by **Hoju** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:03 pm

was it a new instructor that started this year well i guess it would be last september?, i ask because i know of all the newer ones

Hoju · Post by **Hoju** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:03 pm

well i know of all of them, do you know where he went to

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:08 pm

check your pm, and I'm not sure where he went, if he's got hired elsewhere for sure. But I know he is looking.

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:31 pm

*sigh*

Damn college grads! What a bunch of prima donnas! Come out of college and expect to get paid 6 figures!

Damn college grads! What a bunch of whores! Come out of college and will work for free to build hours!

Well which one is it? Seems like people here will brand college grads whatever fits they're rant for the day. We're all the same and we're all in it together. Maybe the people who feel the need to put down any pilot group they don't personally belong to are the real reason things aren't better. They're the ones that feel the need to fight, undercut and hold back the other guy because they don't respect them or where they come from.

I have more, but I'm too tired to explain why we aren't just getting GIVEN our licenses by the colleges/gov't.

ykzrampie · Post by **ykzrampie** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:43 pm

I did the college thing. Yeah the one in Toronto. I have just one thing to say to those who whine and moan about the subsidized programs. Where were you the day that I wrote the entrance exams? I was there, so were many others. The subsidized programs are there for everyone and accessible to anyone that is willing to put a reasonable amount of work into something. Standards are high but I think the taxpayer would be happy to know that it's not a cake walk to a multi-ifr. And later on, the paying passenger will be happy to know that the pilot up front was put through his/her paces in order to get where he/she is. I put up with lots of crap that I wouldn't have had I paid for the training myself. And don't get me wrong, the 3 years that it took still cost a bundle in living expenses.

Oh, and let's get one more thing out of the way here. I was never made to believe that my Seneca diploma was going to land me a job in an A320 upon graduation. Things suck and that's what we were told. No BS.

There will always be feuds between the ones who went to college and the ones who didn't. Nothing we can do about that. Besides, it makes for interesting posts and topics.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:51 am

Does Seneca still teach circuits with the gear down in the Baron?

mduffy · Post by **mduffy** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:55 am

This conversation isn't about who's a better pilot - it's about the public paying for flight training.

I realize going to college can cost as much in 3 years as private training in 1. But who paid for the private training? Not 1 tax dollar.

And yes, colleges provide excellent quality training. But I'm sure most of us would agree that we learnt 99% of what we know 'on the line'. This is an experienced based system where the training aims to ensure you don't kill yourself while you gain those first few hours.

Any other suggestions on how to cull the pilot supply to swing the supply and demand curve in our direction?

SittinPretty · Post by **SittinPretty** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:02 pm

Publicly funding flight training is nonsense in a country like Canada. First of all, do you really require 3 years to figure out how to get a CPL and put 200 hours in the logbook. All at taxpayers expense. In the states, students would achieve the same thing in 6 months. Granted they have better weather, but do we need to drag on the training so that little Johnny has better weather knowledge than some meteorologists. Let's prioritize.
Quebec has another major issue which is the ease with which French (pilots from France, Belgium, etc) can gain a work visa. Quebec controls it's own immigration laws and if you come from a French speaing country you can gain access to the Canadian job market in a matter of a couple of weeks and a few forms filled out.
Do Canadian pilots have that kind of access to the EU? Not bloody likely.
Shooting ourselves in the foot again.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:18 pm

ykzrampie wrote:I did the college thing. Yeah the one in Toronto. I have just one thing to say to those who whine and moan about the subsidized programs. Where were you the day that I wrote the entrance exams? I was there, so were many others.

Does this college accept applicants from across Canada or just Ontario residents?

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:14 pm

mduffy wrote:But who paid for the private training? Not 1 tax dollar.

So I guess you took that T2202A form, and threw it in the garbage?

Just me being a dick again...

-istp

Kernal Klink · Post by **Kernal Klink** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:06 pm

Well, for those of you that don't agree with joe taxpayer flipping the bill for flight training, you'll be very happy to hear that the wonderful people at HRDC have decided that they will not subsidize my flight training (multi-IFR). That's fine... but let's look at the bigger picture:
Upgrade to MIFR-------$6,000 taxpayer expense
$6,000 my expense
-leads to full time work, and no more EI
Note: I've been flying the bush for 5 years now, and going on EI every winter........

EI Claims-------------$10,000 per winter
times 5 winters------$50,000 total and rising

So as you can see, sometimes it would be cheaper for the government to kick in some form of subsidization (investment) in order for one to become a tax base for the rest of their career. The tax payer would get their money back at some point. This is the same as subsidizing colleges.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:19 pm

Kernal....get out of the bush and hit the coast!...unless you want winters off. How much float time you got? Types?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:38 pm

Kernal Klink wrote:The tax payer would get their money back at some point. This is the same as subsidizing colleges.

No I think you missed the point... If they didn't pay for little timmy to fly the plane, you'd be getting your HRDC funding....

6 HRDC applicants or the cost of 1 seneca grad....

Sorry, you needed to side with us against subsidized college programs.

Secondly, you'll also be glad to know little timmy, being younger and stronger, will be taking your job, you'll be on welfare shortly....

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:39 pm

complexintentions wrote:
ykzrampie wrote:I did the college thing. Yeah the one in Toronto. I have just one thing to say to those who whine and moan about the subsidized programs. Where were you the day that I wrote the entrance exams? I was there, so were many others.
Does this college accept applicants from across Canada or just Ontario residents?

YouZ got to get yo po arse down 2 the TDot holmes if yaZ want to playZ.

PS, and screw you for wanting to steal Ontarian taxes...

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:42 pm

Hoju wrote:i also went to a subsidized flight school, it ended up costing me about 30 G's when you factor in living expenses etc. etc.

I think the guys that have to travel to other FTU's to get a license, have to pay for travel and living expenses, damn, guess they pay twice the cost of someone living off Uncle Sam.

ykzrampie · Post by **ykzrampie** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:56 am

Cat Driver wrote:Does Seneca still teach circuits with the gear down in the Baron?

Yes they sure do. There are a few reasons; the obvious being to help reduce the likelyhood of a gear up landing. If it's always down, then you won't forget. The other reason is to keep speeds down in the circuit. I personally prefer putting it up but I didn't make the calls at Seneca. I mean why mix it up? Always put it up after take-off and always put it down before landing. Pretty simple it seems but I guess you can't take any chances when part of a rather large FTU like that. We did it as well in the Bonanzas. Mostly a safety thing though.

The program is funded by the Ontario government so yes you have to be permanent resident of Ontario to attend. So I guess I stand corrected that not ALL have access to this program.

Cheers!