JBI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:27 pm
I have no skin in this game, but I do seem to recall that back in 2005 Air Canada ordered 787s contingent upon the pilots agreeing to some reduced pay rates or concessions. ACPA didn't agree and AC made a big announcement about how they had to cancel the 787 order.
I'm not sure the exact steps that happened afterwards, but I've since been a pax on AC 787s numerous times....
That vote in 2005 was for 777 Freighters and we are only just getting them in 2025, 20 years later…
BTD is correct. The vote was on the rate for ALL 777s and Milton cancelled the order when he was rejected. He didn't really though, 777s arrived on the originally planned delivery schedule.
The 2 freighters - that's where the "There's no money in Cargo" Milton quote comes from. But really it was the increased capacity and tonnage in the 777 bellies that refilled in the cancellation. This was such a large increase to AC's capacity, the calculation regarding freighter necessity changed. We got all the 777s though as the freighters were converted to passenger orders. To be clear, we got all the 777s from the original order.
The executives will execute their business plan and chisel away at us along the way if we let them. If we stand tall, they will still go ahead with their plans, pennies and nickels from pilots don't change a thing. Stop conditioning them to come to us by voting no. No more concessions. We've given enough.
Management will make all kinds of threats during negotiations. It’s a psy-op. At Jazz we were threatened with all kinds of stuff when negotiations were on. The fact is they aren’t going to cancel aircraft orders over giving the pilots a raise.
Think of it like the Covid. Look how many threats the Trudeau regime made to dupe us into getting vaccines we mostly didn’t want or need. The propaganda machine was in full swing over the past 3 years.
You guys and gals vote for what you think is right. I do hope you get some serious gains. Now is the best time to leverage it. Good luck.
By voting no and showing that Canadian pilots still have some stones, it will have a positive domino effect on the WJ next round of negos which then will have a positive effect on the AC negos, etc etc. Look at what is happening down south in the last year. For the first time in like 15+ years, the pilots group finally have some leverage.
It might even trickle down to Jazz where they will have to raise their wages in order to keep their experienced skippers and attract qualified candidates.
Best of luck for you folks.
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:50 am
It might even trickle down to Jazz where they will have to raise their wages in order to keep their experienced skippers and attract qualified candidates.
daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:50 am
It might even trickle down to Jazz where they will have to raise their wages in order to keep their experienced skippers and attract qualified candidates.
In 17 years
One could argue that they had their chance 3 years ago when they had the leverage and they squandered all of it for a fake flow. At the end of the day, it was all too predictable and tiresome.
In any case, a shortage of skippers at Jazz will force management to find a way to make it attractive to stay or to join as a DEC.
As it is right now, there’s absolutely no reasons why a qualified candidate would apply for JZA DEC when they can go to Flair, WJ, CJ, Porter and AC OTS will probably ramp up as well regardless of this vote.
I obviously wish them the best of luck as well... 17 years contract... shrug
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
JBI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:27 pm
I have no skin in this game, but I do seem to recall that back in 2005 Air Canada ordered 787s contingent upon the pilots agreeing to some reduced pay rates or concessions. ACPA didn't agree and AC made a big announcement about how they had to cancel the 787 order.
JBI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:27 pm
I have no skin in this game, but I do seem to recall that back in 2005 Air Canada ordered 787s contingent upon the pilots agreeing to some reduced pay rates or concessions. ACPA didn't agree and AC made a big announcement about how they had to cancel the 787 order.
I'm not sure the exact steps that happened afterwards, but I've since been a pax on AC 787s numerous times....
That vote in 2005 was for 777 Freighters and we are only just getting them in 2025, 20 years later…
That’s BS. It was for 777s not 777 freighters. And they ended up getting them anyway even if a NO vote….good try though
Total BS sharklaser
The original 777 order had two freighters in it. They were converted to passenger because AC didn’t see a business opportunity with them. That position remained the same, no business opportunity, until Covid hit and put the supply chain on its ear.
The 777 order, supposedly canceled, showed up anyway. Yes without two freighters that are currently operating passengers.
daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:50 am
It might even trickle down to Jazz where they will have to raise their wages in order to keep their experienced skippers and attract qualified candidates.
In 17 years
One could argue that they had their chance 3 years ago when they had the leverage and they squandered all of it for a fake flow. At the end of the day, it was all too predictable and tiresome.
In any case, a shortage of skippers at Jazz will force management to find a way to make it attractive to stay or to join as a DEC.
As it is right now, there’s absolutely no reasons why a qualified candidate would apply for JZA DEC when they can go to Flair, WJ, CJ, Porter and AC OTS will probably ramp up as well regardless of this vote.
I obviously wish them the best of luck as well... 17 years contract... shrug
Do not forget the history. ACPA gave Skyregional to AC. Sky was used as a gun to Jazz’s head for lower wages and a long term contract. As soon as AC got what it wanted? Sky is no more.
ACPA’s finger prints are all over that long term deal. Don’t think for a second the ACPA scope committee at the time didn’t know exactly what they were doing.
Don’t think for a second the current scope committee doesn’t understand what the changes within this MOA might do.
We have a tendency not to play well with others. The fact that we make decisions only for our own best interest means we have no issue selling things like scope for cash. Particularly when the consequences for us are next to zero.
One could argue that they had their chance 3 years ago when they had the leverage and they squandered all of it for a fake flow. At the end of the day, it was all too predictable and tiresome.
In any case, a shortage of skippers at Jazz will force management to find a way to make it attractive to stay or to join as a DEC.
As it is right now, there’s absolutely no reasons why a qualified candidate would apply for JZA DEC when they can go to Flair, WJ, CJ, Porter and AC OTS will probably ramp up as well regardless of this vote.
I obviously wish them the best of luck as well... 17 years contract... shrug
Do not forget the history. ACPA gave Skyregional to AC. Sky was used as a gun to Jazz’s head for lower wages and a long term contract. As soon as AC got what it wanted? Sky is no more.
ACPA’s finger prints are all over that long term deal. Don’t think for a second the ACPA scope committee at the time didn’t know exactly what they were doing.
Don’t think for a second the current scope committee doesn’t understand what the changes within this MOA might do.
We have a tendency not to play well with others. The fact that we make decisions only for our own best interest means we have no issue selling things like scope for cash. Particularly when the consequences for us are next to zero.
Also don’t forget the Georgian experiment. YYZ lost all jet flying for a couple of years because Skyregional wasn’t enough punishment for Jazz. Look how that ended!
