Rejected Take-Off

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:44 pm

Both pilots trained with types, both can call reject. Better to be sitting on the ground having made a wrong call than airborne with a bad one.

Below 80 knots, Captain takes control because he has the tiller.

Not so tough.

The Europeans like Stop!

Blakey · Post by **Blakey** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:49 pm

Cat Driver wrote: Back to reject on takeoff, in any airplane I'm flying it is the pilot flying who makes that decision.

Cat

You'd think this was the best way to go but, in a large multi-crew aircraft, it is not always so. If there is a fire in the cargo compartment, you won't know about it and there might not be time for the crewmember in the back to explain the details of the situation and await your decision before the aircraft reaches V1.

In our operation, all crewmembers can initiate a reject, with an "Abort" call followed by a description of the problem, up until V1. After "V1" is called, they only state the problem and the pilot flying makes the call.

170 to xray · Post by **170 to xray** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:58 pm

Are we confusing calling the reject with actioning it, or am I confused? Are some people saying that only the captain can call a reject?

Either can call it and both pilots will have specific duties.

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:49 pm

I don't think that I was clear in my explanation. In our operation, below 100 knots, either pilot has the authority to call abort, but the PF will carry out the reject. Past 100 knots and before V1, its only the PF that has the abort authority, and of course, the PF will perform the abortion (that doesn't sound very nice

) In any case, I don't think that the Captain would be too worried about protocol if he were to want to reject when the Co-Pilot is flying. I think its safe to assume that even though by SOP he doesn't have the 'abort authority', he does in the 'unwritten SOP's'. These 'unwritten SOP's' are what I refer to as 'Shankdown's Operating Procedures'

Buenos Noches fellas!!!

Shankdown

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:48 am

This is such a critical area of flight and there are so many variables to be considered that strong SOPs have to be developed and followed. All the AFM will provide is the actions that must be accomplished. The SOP's will give direction as to who does what, when.

170 to xray · Post by **170 to xray** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:12 am

Agreed. No time for....

"But I thought you were going to reject. You mean I could have called that? OK next time I will."

ninjacrumb · Post by **ninjacrumb** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:24 am

My company SOP does dictate that the captain calls rejected takeoffs, and I kinda like it that way.I agree with your logic Doc, in that a competent FO can initiate a rejected TO. No problem. However remember your 748 days? V1 was a figment of some limeys imagination. Rejecting a TO because of a fuel heater light on as per SOP is ludacrist, especially downhill in YPL. Something only an experienced captain may realize. And once the FO brings the throttles back your screwed.

Plus I've flown with dudes that have competently passed a ride (yes I know your views on rides, no need to re itterate), fly the plane well, but I know I could knowingly try to crash the plane and they wouldn't say a peep until the tree tops are penetrating the radome. The resolve just isn't there yet.

This rant isn't meant to group all FOs together, most are capable. And could easily make the decision, but some could not. For larger airplanes on smaller runways the decision is crucial and personally I think best left to the guy responsible for the whole airplane.

Bash away at me people I have broad shoulders, and very little shame.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:30 am

How many of you have had to do a reject...for something that mattered, at speed? I dont mean the..."Oh, crap...we forgot to get fuel..."etc.. going through 40 kts!
I've never had one...ever...and I've flown some real shitheaps!

ninjacrumb · Post by **ninjacrumb** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:32 am

I've considered rejecting for porn. Is that important?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:36 am

" How many of you have had to do a reject...for something that mattered, at speed? "

I have.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:37 am

3 times over 28 years Doc.

1. Center engine failure at V1-5kts
2. Rudder bias full input at V1- aborted above V1 by a couple of knots but runway was not critical.
3. Severe windshear (microburst departing PHL) at V1-5-10, lost directional control..

I should add that all 3 were successful

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:47 am

I've done a few as well...but not at a critical speed, and not for something I couldn't have lived with airbourne....guess I've been lucky? Had a few things go for a dump right after take off though...
I had a nose tire let go on the F27 in CVG on night...but only going about 60 kts at the time...so not ctitical?

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:59 pm

I did once when I came over the crest of a saddle-shaped runway in West Africa only to see a whole passel of stray dogs soaking up the morning sun right in the middle of the runway. It wasn't a super high speed abort (Navajo), but fast enough that things had to happen quickly. But from that point forward, I'd always taxi the length of the runway to chase them away. I talked to the airport manager there and complained about these things and how they'd sooner than later cause an accident. My solution was to kill em all. He came back to me the next day with his solution: He requested funds for a bicycle! YAY!!! 10 minutes before takeoff, he'd send someone out on the bike to shoo them all away! I shook my head and told him I'd just do it myself. Other than that, only in the sim

Shankdown

Cleared to FL370 · Post by **Cleared to FL370** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:31 pm

I think a rejected takeoff is a Captain initiated event. It certainly is so, at the airline level. I have been involved in 3 rejects, thankfully all 3 were not at a weight near our runway limit.

At V1-5knots say at your maximum balanced field weight would you want a brand new FO to call "reject" for a non critical event? I sure wouldn't
In the high speed regime we are trained to reject for:
1)Engine Fire
2)Engine Failure
3)Serious doubt the aircraft will fly.

My company has clearly defined SOP's for the Captain and First Officer in the even the Captain calls "reject"

The only time a First Officer would call reject would be in the event of the Captain being incapacitated at the 80 knot call.
I know that there are a few turbo prop operaters that either pilot can call reject but I don't agree with it.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:55 pm

FL370...I would only hope your f/o's are trained in the communications skills required to get the point across to the old, slow, grey haired, but wise one, in time for his reduced reflexes to make an informed desesion in time to prevent impending disaster......"pardon me?......What was that?...Failure in number eight, you say?"....Ah, the much dreaded seven engine take-off!

Brantford Beech Boy · Post by **Brantford Beech Boy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:54 pm

great input guys.
thanx

at my former employer, either pilot could call for the reject but the only the captain initiated it.
I believe it was this way mostly because the captain had the nosewheel steering (Boeing/748) among other reasons (some listed above)

at my current employer, either pilot can call a reject (after a brief statement as to why ie. "Engine failure, REJECT") and the PF initiates. We also fly smaller planes (BE20) here where either pilot has nosewheel steering.

Having used both SOP, could not make up my mind as to which is better.

Personally, as a PIC with sometimes newbie F/Os, I think I would rather take control and perform the RTO myself.
As an old training captain pointed out to me once, "if she is goin in the weeds and your gonna be responsible anyway, might as well personally take her into the weeds"

but I also see the expediency of letting the PF initiate the RTO.

anyway,
thanx again
BBB

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:18 pm

Cleared to FL370 wrote:I think a rejected takeoff is a Captain initiated event. It certainly is so, at the airline level.

Initiated is the key word but the F/O would make the call(as PNF)... ie... "number 2 engine failure" as the EPR gauge drops instantly to zero. Then the Captain would call "reject" and take the appropriate action.

If the Captain is PNF then he/she would catch the problem and call "reject" then take control as the Captain covers the thrust levers for all take offs.

pika · Post by **pika** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:26 pm

Initiated is the key word but the F/O would make the call(as PNF)... ie... "number 2 engine failure" as the EPR gauge drops instantly to zero. Then the Captain would call "reject" and take the appropriate action.

If the Captain is PNF then he/she would catch the problem and call "reject" then take control as the Captain covers the thrust levers for all take offs.

Recognizing the problem on take-off need not include a description of which engine has failed. "Engine Failure" will do. All the lights and beepers should also alert the old man that something may not be normal.

Flaps30Greenlight · Post by **Flaps30Greenlight** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:44 pm

Well guys its one thing to say let the F/O call the reject if he or she is the flying pilot , but what happens when there fresh on the aircraft? I think it has to be the Capt decision to go or reject and thiers alone. A few reasons why.

A. They should have at this point more experience to decide and make a better evaluation of the situation .

B. They will have the training required by both company SOP's and TC to complete an RTO.(Our company requires on their upgrades practice and training in the sim of RTO's and when you should continue ex; a tire failure at say V1 - 10 as opposed to when you should abort. engine failure , fire , or lose of control .)

C. At our Company as per most at the airline level, the Capt has his hand gaurding the thrust quadrant enabling a quick reaction time also technicly his hand would be closer to the speed brake just by virtue of his seat in the aircraft .at least on all boeing products.not sure of other aircraft.

D. Most important point ...At the end of the day its the Captains aircraft.
At least thats what the lawyers will say as they are cross examining him...

So there is my two cents for whats its worth.

Cheers

Cleared to FL370 · Post by **Cleared to FL370** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:52 pm

Doc:
Yes FO's do call out, failures on the Take off roll, it's the Captain that makes the call to reject. It's a system that works well. I've seen it in the high speed regime in real life,(me) and also every 6months in simulator.
Thanks but I'm quite happy with our SOP's