New pay scales

[safetyfirst123]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

[Blueontop]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

Coming in with 5000+ total, 2000+ multi-jet pic (1000+ mid-size jet) with international experience would that result in a rapid upgrade? TIA

[ant_321]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

Coming in with 5000+ total, 2000+ multi-jet pic (1000+ mid-size jet) with international experience would that result in a rapid upgrade? TIA

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

[co-joe]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

[wyndham]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

That's an pretty out to lunch statemet. There's never been an un upgradable FO problem. Those numbers can be reduced 500 hours per year employed at Sunwing, so 4000 and 1000. If you have the time, upgrades in less than a year. If not, work for 2 years, get your 1000 hours and you're eligible. Also, company can and has waived the weight limit for high time jet pilots, ie Embraer. I don't think I've ever heard one pilot here say the times should be lowered, nor would it be safe to do so.

[safetyfirst123]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

So far, there is not a lack of upgradeable FO's at Sunwing, despite management's best efforts to paint that picture. I'm sure at some point, these requirements might need to be reconsidered, but not yet.

[elite]

The Sunwing pay looks decent on the captain side but still looks a bit low on the FO side. In my opinion a mid sized jet (737, 320, etc) FO should be making $100/hour year one to survive the cost of living in major Canadian cities.

For too long, carriers have institutionalized ‘probation pay’. That is how they historically have justified low entry level compensation (typically on the FO scale but most recently on the entry level CA scale as well for DEC).

If you don’t want to hire ‘career’ FO’s or are selling rapid upgrade opportunities, start at appropriate FO pay for equipment and just don’t let FO tenure increase beyond a reasonable scale (say 6-8 years assuming all affected pilots are eligible for upgrade within this time frame).

If a pilot is qualified, they should be paid as qualified from Day 1.

I would posit it’s the union protectionism that causes that. Other professionals changing jobs don’t have to do that, doctors, lawyers, even electricians, plumbers,…. Only pilots force another pilot from another airline to the bottom of their list and try to make sure they don’t get paid more.

[flyingpilot]

Would anyone be able to give me some information on the current pay and per diems, working conditions, what kind of pairings to expect if toronto based, and how often could one possibly expect to be on reserve, and how long are the reserve blocks? would it be possible and reasonable to commute? Thanks in advance.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Would anyone be able to give me some information on the current pay and per diems, working conditions, what kind of pairings to expect if toronto based, and how often could one possibly expect to be on reserve, and how long are the reserve blocks? would it be possible and reasonable to commute? Thanks in advance.

Can’t speak to the working conditions, pairings, reserve… but the pay, per diems and block construction etc can be found on their collective agreement.

https://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agree ... 32403a.pdf

[frog]

As a junior pilot, you can expect a lot of reserve.
Long pairings. However, it is max 16 days of work per month. You can have a great qol if you're not commuting.
once you are more senior, you can have the turn and make your 80 hours in 10 days with no reserve.
Don't expect it's going to be easy if you commute as a junior.

[ant_321]

The pay in the collective agreement is outdated, it was increased with an LOU. You can find the pay in this table. Min credit varies between months. Comes to 960hrs per year.

[Fanblade]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

[MaxAuto]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

[Fanblade]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

Thanks MaxAuto.

The process for mergers is you first select representation. Then you come up with a combined contract. Depending on time lines the combined contract and common representation may come before your current contract expires.

The most painful part of any merger is always the next step which is integration. With that said the parties have very little control. The only opinion that matters will be that of the arbitrator. The arbitrators decision will be based on past decisions. The basic premise is to keep everyone doing the same job they were doing the day before the merge. They look first to DOH. If that doesn’t look reasonable they move on to ratios and fences.

There is no our flying or their flying

[cdnavater]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

Thanks MaxAuto.

The process for mergers is you first select representation. Then you come up with a combined contract. Depending on time lines the combined contract and common representation may come before your current contract expires.

The most painful part of any merger is always the next step which is integration. With that said the parties have very little control. The only opinion that matters will be that of the arbitrator. The arbitrators decision will be based on past decisions. The basic premise is to keep everyone doing the same job they were doing the day before the merge. They look first to DOH. If that doesn’t look reasonable they move on to ratios and fences.

There is no our flying or their flying

That’s an interesting statement, “a combined contract”, when the merger goes forward is there another negotiation to take place, could Westjet try to meet somewhere in the middle of the two and end up with another potential strike?

[Crewbunk]

That’s an interesting statement, “a combined contract”, when the merger goes forward is there another negotiation to take place, could Westjet try to meet somewhere in the middle of the two and end up with another potential strike?

Historically, when two pilot groups merge, they have the option of picking the best of both contracts, combining the best aspects.

[rudder]

That’s an interesting statement, “a combined contract”, when the merger goes forward is there another negotiation to take place, could Westjet try to meet somewhere in the middle of the two and end up with another potential strike?

Historically, when two pilot groups merge, they have the option of picking the best of both contracts, combining the best aspects.

Given that there are 2 bargaining agents involved (Unifor/ALPA), first step will be a representation vote.

Operating under the assumption that ALPA prevails, the ALPA Merger Policy will then apply.

The ALPA Merger Policy is a multifaceted policy. It does not simply contemplate a merging of seniority lists, but a merging of elected representatives resulting in a single executive structure, the negotiation of a single CBA, and the integration of seniority lists.

Any vote on a single CBA will be one pilot-one vote of the total merged pilot population. There will be no individual member vote on the integrated seniority list.

It is unlikely the CIRB would allow this integration to create an open period that might permit a strike/lockout.

[Fanblade]

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

Thanks MaxAuto.

The process for mergers is you first select representation. Then you come up with a combined contract. Depending on time lines the combined contract and common representation may come before your current contract expires.

The most painful part of any merger is always the next step which is integration. With that said the parties have very little control. The only opinion that matters will be that of the arbitrator. The arbitrators decision will be based on past decisions. The basic premise is to keep everyone doing the same job they were doing the day before the merge. They look first to DOH. If that doesn’t look reasonable they move on to ratios and fences.

There is no our flying or their flying

That’s an interesting statement, “a combined contract”, when the merger goes forward is there another negotiation to take place, could Westjet try to meet somewhere in the middle of the two and end up with another potential strike?

Rudder said it better than I could have.

There is a reason ALPA policy sets out a combined contract before integration even gets mentioned. So you work together. For example in 2000 Air Canada went to the Canadian pilots and offered them the AirCanada pilot contract on the spot. It was a raise and they took it.

Canadian pilots had a contract that had far better QOL aspects to it. All lost. Opportunity lost.

Westjet management may do the exact same thing if there are parts of the Sunwing contract they don’t want. Or if they decide they don’t want to deal with pilots cherry picking parts of their respective contracts.

[Crewbunk]

For example in 2000 Air Canada went to the Canadian pilots and offered them the AirCanada pilot contract on the spot. It was a raise and they took it.

Canadian pilots had a contract that had far better QOL aspects to it. All lost. Opportunity lost.

Westjet management may do the exact same thing if there are parts of the Sunwing contract they don’t want. Or if they decide they don’t want to deal with pilots cherry picking parts of their respective contracts.

Almost right. It was Air Canada and ACPA that agreed to putting the Air Canada contract in place. Canadian/ALPA was there but had no say. (They watched with astonishment).

The Canadian contract with Air Canada pay was Robert Milton’s worst nightmare. Milton played ACPA like a fiddle. Saying things like “Right now, CP’s pilots ride in J, laughing at you …. we can end that right now, just sign here”.

It’s labour law that the surviving contract can be the combination of both contracts, cherry picking the best. That’s why CP’s contract was so good, it was the combination of the CP, PW, ND, WD, PV and TZ contracts.

The Canadian merger committee advised ACPA that patience will result in the best of both worlds. But it’s optional, not mandatory.

Same thing in this case. There may well be facets in the Sunwing contract that Westjet may like. They have that option.

Now …. the seniority integration is something entirely different. If not mutually agreed, (it rarely is), then arbitration will result. I’ve seen five mergers first hand, and studied hundreds.

[Fanblade]

For example in 2000 Air Canada went to the Canadian pilots and offered them the AirCanada pilot contract on the spot. It was a raise and they took it.

Canadian pilots had a contract that had far better QOL aspects to it. All lost. Opportunity lost.

Westjet management may do the exact same thing if there are parts of the Sunwing contract they don’t want. Or if they decide they don’t want to deal with pilots cherry picking parts of their respective contracts.

Almost right. It was Air Canada and ACPA that agreed to putting the Air Canada contract in place. Canadian/ALPA was there but had no say. (They watched with astonishment).

The Canadian contract with Air Canada pay was Robert Milton’s worst nightmare. Milton played ACPA like a fiddle. Saying things like “Right now, CP’s pilots ride in J, laughing at you …. we can end that right now, just sign here”.

It’s labour law that the surviving contract can be the combination of both contracts, cherry picking the best. That’s why CP’s contract was so good, it was the combination of the CP, PW, ND, WD, PV and TZ contracts.

The Canadian merger committee advised ACPA that patience will result in the best of both worlds. But it’s optional, not mandatory.

Same thing in this case. There may well be facets in the Sunwing contract that Westjet may like. They have that option.

Now …. the seniority integration is something entirely different. If not mutually agreed, (it rarely is), then arbitration will result. I’ve seen five mergers first hand, and studied hundreds.

Thanks for the correction crewbunk.

You just made the point I was trying to make even more relevant.

WORK TOGETHER. Don’t get caught up in us vs them. Leave all the us vs them stuff to the two merger committees.

[Crewbunk]

You just made the point I was trying to make even more relevant.

WORK TOGETHER. Don’t get caught up in us vs them. Leave all the us vs them stuff to the two merger committees.

One point you made is entirely correct and it explains what happened during the AC/CP merge. The contract combination occurs around the same time as the seniority integration. If that’s not going well, and the AC/CP merge was not, then working together is tough.

It’s hard, but leaving emotion aside and thinking towards the future usually has better results.

[cdnavater]

Thanks to all three of you, that’s way better than I imagined the scenario would play out.