New pay scales

[khedrei]

I agree that FO pay should be 100K to start. That puts it at roughly 2/3 of first year captain pay which I think is fair given the responsibilities and requirements of the job. AC first year pay should double but I doubt we will see that.

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

[Tbayer2021]

I agree that FO pay should be 100K to start. That puts it at roughly 2/3 of first year captain pay which I think is fair given the responsibilities and requirements of the job. AC first year pay should double but I doubt we will see that.

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

I agree that there really isn't a significant number of 250 hour pilots in the right seat of an airliner. Aside from a handful of Sunwing cadets, I can't think of anyone with that sort of experience in the right seat. That being said, its not exactly wild speculation to see that this is where things are headed. Every major airline in Canada has been gradually lowering the experience required to get in with them. An email from the union at Transat explicitly mentioned that the company was seriously looking at a cadet program to meet their staffing requirements.

Companies will sooner hire someone with less time than pay more. Our American brothers benefited when a hard floor was placed on the experience required. We don't have that here, at least not yet. So I think it's fair to assume we will continue to see First Officers being hired with exceedingly fewer hours before we see any signifiant movement on the pay side.

[canadianpilot101]

I agree that FO pay should be 100K to start. That puts it at roughly 2/3 of first year captain pay which I think is fair given the responsibilities and requirements of the job. AC first year pay should double but I doubt we will see that.

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Wasaya and Perimeter do for sure on the classic dash/ beech 1900/ metros.

[khedrei]

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Wasaya and Perimeter do for sure on the classic dash/ beech 1900/ metros.

Saying they require a minimum of 250 hours is different than putting a 250 hour pilot in the right seat of a 1900. Im not saying it hasn't ever happened. I assume you know someone personally that got hired with 250 hours? Otherwise its hear say.

Also, putting ONE 250 hour pilot in the right seat doesn't mean they make a habit of it. Using the term "continue" seems to imply its happening often and everywhere.

[cdnavater]

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Wasaya and Perimeter do for sure on the classic dash/ beech 1900/ metros.

Saying they require a minimum of 250 hours is different than putting a 250 hour pilot in the right seat of a 1900. Im not saying it hasn't ever happened. I assume you know someone personally that got hired with 250 hours? Otherwise its hear say.

Also, putting ONE 250 hour pilot in the right seat doesn't mean they make a habit of it. Using the term "continue" seems to imply its happening often and everywhere.

Sorry to burst your bubble, it has been happening at Jazz for years, not months. I also encountered a 750TT Captain on metro 3, who told me they flew with bare commercial licence in the right seat, in the mountains no less.
Not sure where you’ve been but it is happening on a fairly large scale, the only major not looking at this right now is AC, as they have Jazz for that.

[khedrei]

I asked to provide an example of a MAJOR in canada that hires 250 hour CPLs.

Wasaya and Perimeter are not majors. Unless your definition is different than mine.

Again, I could be mistaken... That's why I asked for an example.

[bring me the horizon]

I agree that FO pay should be 100K to start. That puts it at roughly 2/3 of first year captain pay which I think is fair given the responsibilities and requirements of the job. AC first year pay should double but I doubt we will see that.

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Sunwing, Jazz. 95% of the northern operators do that in turboprops.

[cdnavater]

I asked to provide an example of a MAJOR in canada that hires 250 hour CPLs.

Wasaya and Perimeter are not majors. Unless your definition is different than mine.

Again, I could be mistaken... That's why I asked for an example.

Why don’t you tell us your definition of “major”, list them and we can tell you who is, mmmkkkkay

[Cessna 180]

This is probably trying to keep a union out (they hired a lot of guys to the jet from outside Porter that would be used to a union, and they pissed off basically all the dash 8 people with pay cuts and equipment "freeze").

I hope their employees see through this and organize regardless.

[ant_321]

I asked to provide an example of a MAJOR in canada that hires 250 hour CPLs.

Wasaya and Perimeter are not majors. Unless your definition is different than mine.

Again, I could be mistaken... That's why I asked for an example.

I’m not sure what your definition of major is but Jazz has been doing it for as long as I can remember and Sunwing has a large cadet program. About 1/3 of the 120+ pilots hired in the last year were straight out of flight school.

[khedrei]

How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.

Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.

Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.

[Transition9er2]

I agree that FO pay should be 100K to start. That puts it at roughly 2/3 of first year captain pay which I think is fair given the responsibilities and requirements of the job. AC first year pay should double but I doubt we will see that.

Agreed on both, pay needs to come up commensurate with experience, that being said, if they continue to put 250 hour pilots in the right seat, I don’t see it happening to the degree we would like to see.

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Jazz has 100% been putting 250hr college kids in the right seats of Q400’s and RJ’s for years now.

When I started at Jazz my initial sim partner was a college kid, told me he had more time in the sim in his log book than in an actual airplane.

Jazz was his first job. Ever.

[goleafsgo]

How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.

Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.

Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.

They don’t hire them off the street at 250 hours but they do through the college programs and the jazz approach program that’s starting up

[twa22]

How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.

Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.

Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.

Jazz was 750, now 500 off the street

Encore has listed 250 hour min since late 2021... has anyone been hired off the street with the mins, no, but it might happen in the near future

As others have said, Sunwing and Jazz have been hiring 250 hour cadets for years now

[ant_321]

How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.

Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.

Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.

I am a trainer at SWG. I can assure you that I have trained many 250hr pilots in the last 12 months.

[rudder]

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Jazz.

[flying4dollars]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

[schnitzel2k3]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

Likely be more pressure if AC adjusts theirs. It seems a consistent average amongst Canadian airlines that FOs are 'only' worth between 55-70k. I'd love to see AC FO's, especially for the talent they are still acquiring starting closer to the US mainlines, 91-95k then onto formula.

For now though, well done Porter, 4 months into a brand new AOC, literally 17 days since revenue day zero, and already raising the industry bar.

eh, raising the bar would be upping the Q pay quite a bit. This is because they need more guys on the EMB.

Agreed Q scales could've used a little more love. The E195 raise looks strategic for finding DECs as the FO salaries haven't really seen movement much either. There's always room for improvement, but so far it's impressive for the size of the aircraft, mission and recency of commencing ops.

[schnitzel2k3]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

[JHR]

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

BINGO!

[khedrei]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

[schnitzel2k3]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

FOs aren't in as short supply these days as qualified well rounded Captains. In a startup, you need a balance, but it's more important to lean towards Captains as they can occupy both seats and usually have the shortest time to becoming a copy machine for the operation.

You put an ad out in corporate for an FO on a jet, you get 10-15 resumes of guys with varying personalities and experience. Same ad for Captain, depending on the jet, usually only garners about a 1/3 of the FO applicant number.

Guarantee this is scaling up to Porter et al regarding current staffing woes.

[braaap Braap]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

Except they arnt having troubles filling FO classes. And why would they invest more (pay and training) to people who dont even want to upgrade/stick around. So they boost the starting captain pay and try and poach from the other airlines.

[rudder]

FO frozen on type for 2 years (except upgrade)

1st year $75k (you are on probation)
2nd year $90k
3rd year 66.67% of corresponding CA rate (unless it is less than $90k)

ACP DEC should be starting at Year 5 CA rate (frozen rate until tenure exceeds 5 years). This is what Virgin America did to attract A320 ACP at startup.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

What about the rest of Porter's conditions?

Min days off per month?
min daily credit? trip and duty rigs?
How is scheduling done?