Maybe we should work together?

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rudder
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:58 am
rudder wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:50 am
Fanblade wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:46 am But eventually they will do what is required to run their business
SKV/GGN/PAL.

Yes, they will.
If the choice to create alternative CPA carriers is about pilot costs, then the choice is flawed in todays market. When there were a lot of pilots out there the strategy worked. One could argue it worked so well that they blew their own foot off as it created the current exodus at Jazz.

PAL is simply trying to run away from pilot market forces. It won’t work in any major way and they know it. PAL is more about creating a burning platform so that they can get a better deal from you. Fear is the motivating factor.

Wait them out. There is a line somewhere where they will cry uncle. We won’t know where it is until you trip on it.
I wasn’t suggesting that this was the correct strategy as neither the GGN nor the SKV commercial relationships survived the test of time.

But never let it stop AC from going back to the well.
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Fanblade
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:01 am
Fanblade wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:58 am
rudder wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:50 am

SKV/GGN/PAL.

Yes, they will.
If the choice to create alternative CPA carriers is about pilot costs, then the choice is flawed in todays market. When there were a lot of pilots out there the strategy worked. One could argue it worked so well that they blew their own foot off as it created the current exodus at Jazz.

PAL is simply trying to run away from pilot market forces. It won’t work in any major way and they know it. PAL is more about creating a burning platform so that they can get a better deal from you. Fear is the motivating factor.

Wait them out. There is a line somewhere where they will cry uncle. We won’t know where it is until you trip on it.
I wasn’t suggesting that this was the correct strategy as neither the GGN nor the SKV commercial relationships survived the test of time.

But never let it stop AC from going back to the well.
They will not pay until it is absolutely clear they have no other choice. Until every other option is exhausted . At the moment they are “hoping” a burning platform will have a beneficial impact for them on your next contract. It worked last time right?

But this isn’t last time. Just wait them out.
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by cjp »

cdnavater wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:35 pm
cjp wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:17 pm
cdnavater wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:04 pm

First of all, umm NO! I have no desire to go to AC in my last years and I think you underestimate what’s going on out there.
At this point any agreement between Jazz pilots and AC is worth the paper it’s on, they have not abided by any agreement so far, I seriously doubt anyone would think this time will be different.
If the vote was the other way, 20% increase, we would vote the flow into the trash where it belongs, I would wipe my ass with anything AC “agreed” to, seemingly unenforceable!
I'm thinking you would need more than 20% increase to keep the lights on - likely closer to 100%.
That will never happen, it would be much cheaper to run a 220 half full than double our wages. They will shrink us to whatever can be managed before they even think about the 20% never mind 100%
IMHO - best thing a Jazz pilot can do, not only for themselves, but for their colleagues, is walk. Worst thing is sit and wait for AC to tell you how it's going to be.

The faster the exodus, the faster AC and Jazz management have to react.

This sitting and waiting at a severely sub par operator for some misguided flow when there are so many quicker options out there confuses me. Jazz has become what GGN used to represent, the very bottom.
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Canpilot7
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Canpilot7 »

IMHO, as someone not at either carrier, is that "working together" makes sense as long as everyone is on the same page that it wouldn't make sense for AC pilots to not maximize their scope and use all bargaining capital on the mainline operation, not on helping the regionals.

Pulling from the top helps everyone, helping to grow regional flying isn't a winning move. Growth in jobs at mainline pulls the whole industry up.

Regardless of the above, AC pilots don't need to represent the rest of us. Their negotiation should benefit them.

But outside of that, I think the WestJet negotiation was a good sign that industry-wide pilots are being proactive about helping each other's negotiations.
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cdnavater
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by cdnavater »

Canpilot7 wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:43 am IMHO, as someone not at either carrier, is that "working together" makes sense as long as everyone is on the same page that it wouldn't make sense for AC pilots to not maximize their scope and use all bargaining capital on the mainline operation, not on helping the regionals.

Pulling from the top helps everyone, helping to grow regional flying isn't a winning move. Growth in jobs at mainline pulls the whole industry up.

Regardless of the above, AC pilots don't need to represent the rest of us. Their negotiation should benefit them.

But outside of that, I think the WestJet negotiation was a good sign that industry-wide pilots are being proactive about helping each other's negotiations.
No, you are right, they should be maximizing their gains, my point was more about righting the wrongs of the past, this is where things went wrong for Jazz.
Often forgotten is that Jazz was an AC company, sold as the only provider for tier two with a lucrative contract, all chipped away at over the years but AC pilots were complicit in that.
Also, not really relevant right now but lower wages at a company that does work for your company is an anchor to your wages.
If things shift around again, to where AC is not hiring and paying their pilots too much, AC will certainly look to shift work where it is cheaper. They are currently well below the threshold and could shift more work to regional.
So, let’s say AC pilots get massive gains from a strike or threat of one, suddenly it’s cheaper to focus on staffing regional aircraft, stop hiring at mainline, pilots will go where there is a hope of eventually getting on at mainline. Jazz will look fairly good at that point.
The hiring at AC doesn’t make sense, is anyone aware of a massive aircraft order that needs staffing, or any announcements of massive route expansion. It just doesn’t add up and only time will tell if it will.
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co-joe
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by co-joe »

Probably the best thing that could happen to Jazz pilots, is if there was no flow agreement to mainline AC at all. Eliminating the one list at WS actually forced Encore to give pay raises outside of contract. I don't think AC pilots have any say over flow though do they?
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Fanblade
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Fanblade »

co-joe wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:20 pm I don't think AC pilots have any say over flow though do they?
None
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cjp
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by cjp »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:18 am
co-joe wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:20 pm I don't think AC pilots have any say over flow though do they?
None
The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, their is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.

Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Crewbunk »

cjp wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:53 am The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, there is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.
I have been in far too many airline mergers and I can opine that it is so unlikely, you’d have to say never. But …. experience tells me, never say never.

However, one facet I could see revived, is after being successfully hired by AC, you get a pre-reserved spot on the AC seniority list. Then, you are released from Jazz when it’s operationally feasible, with no urgency.

This was done at Air Ontario/AC, Canadian Regional/CP and then again at Jazz/AC.
Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
I asked this once at a training meeting once. (Training though, not hiring) It was the feeling this is untrue. Just another forum rumour.
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Fanblade
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Fanblade »

cjp wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:53 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:18 am
co-joe wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:20 pm I don't think AC pilots have any say over flow though do they?
None
The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, their is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.

Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
The AC pilot seniority list is not DOH post merger with Canadian Airlines. As such any merger, if it were to occur, would not be DOH. It would be a ratio. Moreover when looking at integration arbitrators try to place likes with likes. Or similar with similar. That makes integration difficult with two companies that don’t overlap equipment. On top of that arbitrators don’t like end tail. It is why the failed Picher award of many years ago was mostly end tail with a small overlap of the very bottom of the AC list and very top of the AC regional list.

If an operational integration were to happen, which is not likely, it would likely end in a similar fashion as far as seniority integration.

I should point out that an operational integration is not the same as AC purchasing Jazz and running it as a wholly owned subsidiary. AC has run Jazz like this in the past and coming back to this structure would not trigger any seniority integration

Like Crewbunk said about DOH. I would never say never…………..but almost.
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cdnavater
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by cdnavater »

Fanblade wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:22 am
cjp wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:53 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:18 am

None
The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, their is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.

Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
The AC pilot seniority list is not DOH post merger with Canadian Airlines. As such any merger, if it were to occur, would not be DOH. It would be a ratio. Moreover when looking at integration arbitrators try to place likes with likes. Or similar with similar. That makes integration difficult with two companies that don’t overlap equipment. On top of that arbitrators don’t like end tail. It is why the failed Picher award of many years ago was mostly end tail with a small overlap of the very bottom of the AC list and very top of the AC regional list.

If an operational integration were to happen, which is not likely, it would likely end in a similar fashion as far as seniority integration.

I should point out that an operational integration is not the same as AC purchasing Jazz and running it as a wholly owned subsidiary. AC has run Jazz like this in the past and coming back to this structure would not trigger any seniority integration

Like Crewbunk said about DOH. I would never say never…………..but almost.
I find it amusing when pilots expect DOH to go from one company to another and as above, Jazz as a separate company won’t trigger anything. If AC wanted to save more money though, it would be integrated.
For me, I expect nothing to change, my relative seniority on my equipment type to stay, so how does that happen?
How do you prevent a year one FO at mainline bidding a Captain vacancy and not bump me down the list, obviously not worried about 1 spot, I’m thinking 20 or more or over time never moving up, that would be very lopsided.
Fences until I could have relative seniority on other types would be fine with me, not looking to go 17 year widebody FO or 320 Capatain, I would prefer to just stay where I am until retirement in 10 years
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by link821 »

I guess my intentions with the initial post were vague and to be honest I don’t have a great many ideas of how we can start working together, only that I hope we find some. I hope to one day leave this industry better then when I found it, a big grand gesture I know… My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this industry would really benefit if we started working to improve conditions for people who haven’t yet decided they want to become a pilot, plant a tree for the shade we know we’ll never get to enjoy kind of stuff. There’s no reason this has to be “pie in the sky” kind of talking.
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rudder
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by rudder »

link821 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:24 pm I guess my intentions with the initial post were vague and to be honest I don’t have a great many ideas of how we can start working together, only that I hope we find some. I hope to one day leave this industry better then when I found it, a big grand gesture I know… My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this industry would really benefit if we started working to improve conditions for people who haven’t yet decided they want to become a pilot, plant a tree for the shade we know we’ll never get to enjoy kind of stuff. There’s no reason this has to be “pie in the sky” kind of talking.
It costs nothing to share information.

There is no reason that the ACA MEC and the JAZ MEC cannot establish communication. It could be at the Executive level. It could be joint MEC meetings. It could be establishing a joint committee to share information and adress labour concerns related to AC.

But it is a choice. It takes effort. And it requires a sincere belief that we are stronger together.

It has been nearly 40 years of mostly failed efforts but that shouldn’t be the only reason not to try again. This isn’t about seniority, merger, or scope. It is about the profession and what we can do collectively to improve it, at least under the AC banner.
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link821
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by link821 »

rudder wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:04 am
link821 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:24 pm I guess my intentions with the initial post were vague and to be honest I don’t have a great many ideas of how we can start working together, only that I hope we find some. I hope to one day leave this industry better then when I found it, a big grand gesture I know… My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this industry would really benefit if we started working to improve conditions for people who haven’t yet decided they want to become a pilot, plant a tree for the shade we know we’ll never get to enjoy kind of stuff. There’s no reason this has to be “pie in the sky” kind of talking.
It costs nothing to share information.

There is no reason that the ACA MEC and the JAZ MEC cannot establish communication. It could be at the Executive level. It could be joint MEC meetings. It could be establishing a joint committee to share information and adress labour concerns related to AC.

But it is a choice. It takes effort. And it requires a sincere belief that we are stronger together.

It has been nearly 40 years of mostly failed efforts but that shouldn’t be the only reason not to try again. This isn’t about seniority, merger, or scope. It is about the profession and what we can do collectively to improve it, at least under the AC banner.
+1
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

rudder wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:04 am
link821 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:24 pm I guess my intentions with the initial post were vague and to be honest I don’t have a great many ideas of how we can start working together, only that I hope we find some. I hope to one day leave this industry better then when I found it, a big grand gesture I know… My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this industry would really benefit if we started working to improve conditions for people who haven’t yet decided they want to become a pilot, plant a tree for the shade we know we’ll never get to enjoy kind of stuff. There’s no reason this has to be “pie in the sky” kind of talking.
It costs nothing to share information.

There is no reason that the ACA MEC and the JAZ MEC cannot establish communication. It could be at the Executive level. It could be joint MEC meetings. It could be establishing a joint committee to share information and adress labour concerns related to AC.

But it is a choice. It takes effort. And it requires a sincere belief that we are stronger together.

It has been nearly 40 years of mostly failed efforts but that shouldn’t be the only reason not to try again. This isn’t about seniority, merger, or scope. It is about the profession and what we can do collectively to improve it, at least under the AC banner.
Again rudder, your words are truly valued here on avcanada.

You’re right… communication needs to happen between pilot groups. Everyone is making gains, and this bar setting at all airlines improves everyone’s WAWCON. I hope jazz can jump on board with what is happening in the industry. Their lack of acknowledgement of this is somewhat terrifying. We’ve given up too much for too long. And now things are definitely on the up. Time to pony up.
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cdnavater
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by cdnavater »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:52 pm
rudder wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:04 am
link821 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:24 pm I guess my intentions with the initial post were vague and to be honest I don’t have a great many ideas of how we can start working together, only that I hope we find some. I hope to one day leave this industry better then when I found it, a big grand gesture I know… My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this industry would really benefit if we started working to improve conditions for people who haven’t yet decided they want to become a pilot, plant a tree for the shade we know we’ll never get to enjoy kind of stuff. There’s no reason this has to be “pie in the sky” kind of talking.
It costs nothing to share information.

There is no reason that the ACA MEC and the JAZ MEC cannot establish communication. It could be at the Executive level. It could be joint MEC meetings. It could be establishing a joint committee to share information and adress labour concerns related to AC.

But it is a choice. It takes effort. And it requires a sincere belief that we are stronger together.

It has been nearly 40 years of mostly failed efforts but that shouldn’t be the only reason not to try again. This isn’t about seniority, merger, or scope. It is about the profession and what we can do collectively to improve it, at least under the AC banner.
Again rudder, your words are truly valued here on avcanada.

You’re right… communication needs to happen between pilot groups. Everyone is making gains, and this bar setting at all airlines improves everyone’s WAWCON. I hope jazz can jump on board with what is happening in the industry. Their lack of acknowledgement of this is somewhat terrifying. We’ve given up too much for too long. And now things are definitely on the up. Time to pony up.
I think Jazz acknowledges the problem, hearing the deal they made with our MEC was around 20-30%, problem is they don’t pay the salaries, it’s AC that refuses to deal with it.
Leads me to conclude, they are still hoping to buy Jazz back on the cheap and would rather negotiate a new deal after that deal is done.
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smooth
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by smooth »

MS went to jazz ground schools and told the new hire, if they to leave jazz within short time and apply as external from other airlines. He will personally make sure these people don't get hired for at least 4 years to AC. One of my buddy in jazz told me, can anyone confirm?
cjp wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:53 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:18 am
co-joe wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:20 pm I don't think AC pilots have any say over flow though do they?
None
The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, their is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.

Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
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Bush
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Bush »

Dozens have left Jazz for other airlines, then successfully come to AC as OTS. This is a lie and they are incapable of exacting such petty revenge in the current market. Vacate Jazz immediately.
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Last edited by Bush on Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

smooth wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:09 am MS went to jazz ground schools and told the new hire, if they to leave jazz within short time and apply as external from other airlines. He will personally make sure these people don't get hired for at least 4 years to AC. One of my buddy in jazz told me, can anyone confirm?
cjp wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:53 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:18 am

None
The funny thing is interacting with a few of the Jazz pilots, their is still some deep rooted belief, with time and loyalty, that they could get....gasp....DOH at AC.

Is there any truth to Jazz pilots being blacklisted on external interviews at AC if they drop Jazz and go to another operation in the interim?
If this is true and someone walked into a groundschool I was in with such childish scare tactics, I’d walk out while he was speaking.
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sportingrifle
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by sportingrifle »

I cannot imagine MS walking into a Jazz ground school, much less ever making a statement as legally damaging as that. I call b$&&$#*t.
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by truedude »

sportingrifle wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:34 pm I cannot imagine MS walking into a Jazz ground school, much less ever making a statement as legally damaging as that. I call b$&&$#*t.
I can totally see him saying something this stupid. He has said some pretty outrages things to AC ground-schools.
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Rooster69 »

Maybe it was some guy named Murray Storm?
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by Sharklasers »

sportingrifle wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:34 pm I cannot imagine MS walking into a Jazz ground school, much less ever making a statement as legally damaging as that. I call b$&&$#*t.
Murray has bigger fish to fry than threatening regional new hires.
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rudder
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by rudder »

Sharklasers wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:08 am
sportingrifle wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:34 pm I cannot imagine MS walking into a Jazz ground school, much less ever making a statement as legally damaging as that. I call b$&&$#*t.
Murray has bigger fish to fry than threatening regional new hires.
Yup. 5000 pilots with an open collective agreement and high expectations.
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Re: Maybe we should work together?

Post by flying4dollars »

truedude wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:53 pm
sportingrifle wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:34 pm I cannot imagine MS walking into a Jazz ground school, much less ever making a statement as legally damaging as that. I call b$&&$#*t.
I can totally see him saying something this stupid. He has said some pretty outrages things to AC ground-schools.
Like?
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