New CA Expectation

[Canadaflyer46]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Even if AC gave the junior flat pay guys and gals 25%, they’re still making less than the King Air drivers in the North. Truth is AC knows those people would rather go broke drinking Starbucks from T1 then go back. And without large competition for talent, I really don’t see the leverage we have other than standing in arrivals loop screaming and holding signs.

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.

Absolutely nailed it.

[alkaseltzer]

I want someone to explain to everyone why our CEO deserves a raise of 233% with the abysmal performance and overall "in the basement" moral of this company, with its bloated middle Management pool and the worst OTP in this hemisphere. By just "cleaning house", they could find enough money to fund a proper raise for pilots 10x over. How many employees per aircraft does AC have again? How about Delta? Jeezuz, you'd think this was a Liberal Government run operation.

Apparently pilots are NOT worth as much as their American counterparts doing the EXACT same job.

Is WHY too much to ask?

He negotiated 233%, clearly he’s got one foot out the door for a variety of reasons.

What price do you think Rovinescu would return for?

[kiaszceski]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Even if AC gave the junior flat pay guys and gals 25%, they’re still making less than the King Air drivers in the North. Truth is AC knows those people would rather go broke drinking Starbucks from T1 then go back. And without large competition for talent, I really don’t see the leverage we have other than standing in arrivals loop screaming and holding signs.

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.

So what’s the solution so we can be paid decent wages if AC won’t raise to $100/hr year 1 FO?

[M.Caribou]

So what’s the solution so we can be paid decent wages if AC won’t raise to $100/hr year 1 FO?

This is the question that keeps popping up in my mind. The long and the short of it is there is no easy solution.

If the border opened up with commuting contracts.....well that would sure change the landscape.

If MORE people would stop accepting the 4 year flat pay as a right of passage, things would swing in favour of the pilots.


Just going off on a tangent here....I think AC is going to have a captain problem. I'm not sure when, or for how long. But we will hit a point when all upgradable pilots will be exhausted and we'll have a glut of people with no REAL PIC time or experience. That....or the standard will be lowered.

[daedalusx]

The solution is simple. Stop accepting the current AC offer.

As long as AC fills up every single GS with hundreds of pilots on flat pay then how much leverage do you really have ?

But because muh seniority number and muh pension and muh career progression, we have pilots crawling naked over broken glass to beg to fly a 777 for 65$ an hour.

[JHR]

Easy to pass it on to the people who don't already work there. But that is no solution.
Turned it down twice in my career btw. You're welcome

[ReturnoftheMike]

You can bet were all unified against our former Chair.

He was the -absolute worst- of them all, lowest of the low. He's now a bad smell that just won't leave the room. The arrogance of him having -anything to say- after what he left us with is astounding. My bet he's lonely on layovers and is trying to justify his failure as our leader to those who shun him.

More likely he is just a bleeding narcissist and can't fathom why we don't all love him. He is without a doubt, the absolute definition of Union failure.

Ripple Nipple,

You treacherous treasonous peon. Your insults will not be tolerated and I will be passing on your name to my corporate overlords as I have done in the past to fools who have crossed. Any demonstration of disloyalty towards my initiatives will be dealt with

As for the leverage innovators, you have unearthed my strategy all along. We need to continue to erode the working conditions to make it so bad, no one will begin on the journey to being the lowest paid pilots on the planet. Once we have destroyed the profession, then we can finally turn the tables and make marginal gains.

Delta pilots are making grave errors in capturing historic gains. They may have piles of resume themselves but soon they will be out of business. Airlines can't afford to pay liveable wages which is why all pilots should have side hustles. This needs to be industry standard to save the industry from failure.

Speaking of which, if anyone is looking for a software company to peddle programs to your employer, please reach out

Regards,

Mike

[PositiveRate27]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Even if AC gave the junior flat pay guys and gals 25%, they’re still making less than the King Air drivers in the North. Truth is AC knows those people would rather go broke drinking Starbucks from T1 then go back. And without large competition for talent, I really don’t see the leverage we have other than standing in arrivals loop screaming and holding signs.

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.

You’re missing the inertia portion of the equation. Delta/UA/AA didn’t raise their WAWCON because they had empty ground schools, they raised them because they forecasted a very real shortage of experience unless they remained the most attractive gig in town. Think of it like stopping a huge oil tanker. You wouldn’t point the ship at the shore and say “we haven’t run aground yet so I don’t have to make any course or power changes.” Pilots take years to be licensed and then the better part of a decade or more until they are experienced enough to be of any use to AC in the left seat. With NB CA spots being awarded in less than a year after being hired, the pressure is on to be in a position to attract qualified talent now, but more importantly in the future. AC has always had deep pools of talent to pull from because they’ve always been the best gig in town. For the first time EVER in this industry, AC trails almost every airline in compensation. This is a watershed moment. If AC waits until until they have empty ground schools they will be past the point of no return.

AC will be doing everything in their power during these negots to convince you they are not in the position I just described. They will spout out the typical talking points of hundreds of resumes on file and full ground schools. The reality is that AC is no longer a desirable place to work. Hanging around the sim building and talking to the new hires on shuttle rides has been quite an eye opening experience. Many of them are very unhappy with how they are treated during their indoctrination into the company and are not generally proud to be working here. People are still coming here because they are banking on flat pay being fixed and improvements to the WAWCON. AC relying on that brings us back to the previously mentioned inertia. The ship maybe still be sailing forwards but it’s losing power and it’s slowly coming to a stop. There are many options elsewhere in and outside of this industry. That is an issue that only AC can fix by making this the best place to work again.

Don’t settle for moderate gains because it’s what Canadians do. Stand up, call them on their bluff and demand to be paid a respectable industry wage. They already know they have to. What they are banking on is you not knowing it.

[PositiveRate27]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Even if AC gave the junior flat pay guys and gals 25%, they’re still making less than the King Air drivers in the North. Truth is AC knows those people would rather go broke drinking Starbucks from T1 then go back. And without large competition for talent, I really don’t see the leverage we have other than standing in arrivals loop screaming and holding signs.

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.

You’re missing the inertia portion of the equation. Delta/UA/AA didn’t raise their WAWCON because they had empty ground schools, they raised them because they forecasted a very real shortage of experience unless they remained the most attractive gig in town. Think of it like stopping a huge oil tanker. You wouldn’t point the ship at the shore and say “we haven’t run aground yet so I don’t have to make any course or power changes.” Pilots take years to be licensed and then the better part of a decade or more until they are experienced enough to be of any use to AC in the left seat. With NB CA spots being awarded in less than a year after being hired, the pressure is on to be in a position to attract qualified talent now, but more importantly in the future. AC has always had deep pools of talent to pull from because they’ve always been the best gig in town. For the first time EVER in this industry, AC trails almost every airline in compensation. This is a watershed moment. If AC waits until until they have empty ground schools they will be past the point of no return.

AC will be doing everything in their power during these negots to convince you they are not in the position I just described. They will spout out the typical talking points of hundreds of resumes on file and full ground schools. The reality is that AC is no longer a desirable place to work. Hanging around the sim building and talking to the new hires on shuttle rides has been quite an eye opening experience. Many of them are very unhappy with how they are treated during their indoctrination into the company and are not generally proud to be working here. People are still coming here because they are banking on flat pay being fixed and improvements to the WAWCON. AC relying on that brings us back to the previously mentioned inertia. The ship maybe still be sailing forwards but it’s losing power and it’s slowly coming to a stop. There are many options elsewhere in and outside of this industry. That is an issue that only AC can fix by making this the best place to work again.

Don’t settle for moderate gains because it’s what Canadians do. Stand up, call them on their bluff and demand to be paid a respectable industry wage. They already know they have to. What they are banking on is you not knowing it.

[Transition9er2]

So what’s the solution so we can be paid decent wages if AC won’t raise to $100/hr year 1 FO?

This is the question that keeps popping up in my mind. The long and the short of it is there is no easy solution.

If the border opened up with commuting contracts.....well that would sure change the landscape.

If MORE people would stop accepting the 4 year flat pay as a right of passage, things would swing in favour of the pilots.


Just going off on a tangent here....I think AC is going to have a captain problem. I'm not sure when, or for how long. But we will hit a point when all upgradable pilots will be exhausted and we'll have a glut of people with no REAL PIC time or experience. That....or the standard will be lowered.

I disagree, I think you’re looking at new hires through the wrong lens.

There’s no question AC is the top tier (NHL even ) position in the country. As one of the last airlines to go through negots, ppl are accepting the position in droves to see if AC can secure the contract everyone is talking about.

If they don’t, I see hundreds stampeding for the doors and getting jobs with WJ and Porter.

There’s over 1000 pilots at AC now with 1yr or less seniority. That’s a small price to pay for a “show me” card when you consider we’re currently in negots.

If the new contract is a dud and other airlines offer roughly the same pay, but better base options and overall better QOL, I don’t for a second believe the bottom of the seniority list will remain the same as it is now.

Second, someone mentioned WJ had leverage partially because they were only getting metro applicants lately. Perhaps you should read over the new hire bios from the last dozen PIT classes. AC is no different. The experience of new hires (for all airlines) is getting less and less. I honestly don’t know where AC will find the 6000 they keep talking about.

[Fanblade]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Again you are hung up on the notion that supply and demand dictates everything. You and I are a product of our educatIon. That education was all supply and demand oriented as if its magical hand controls everything. But that isn’t correct. The concept of supply and demand needs to be married against unionism to fully understand the real world. There is proof all around us that supply and demand does not control everything. Unionism is its nemesis.

For example Air Canada on its own would not give a senior pilot a raise period. Why bother when they don’t need too. Where are those pilots going to go? Nowhere. So solely on supply and demand senior pilots would never get a raise. Clearly that isn’t what happens, so something else is going on. It’s unionism.

Another example. Jazz management would like to give raises only to direct entry Captains. Why, because that is where the supply and demand issues are. ALPA Jazz has responded no. You have to pay us all. So far this conflict is still playing out. Why doesn’t Jazz just pay those direct entry captains and ignore the rest of the pilot group? Unionism.

Port of Vancouver. Great paying jobs. If those jobs were not held within a union they would pay a fraction of what they do today. At those wages and educational requirements they would have limitless supply. Yet they got a raise. Unionism. In fact the port union has thrown the idea of supply and demand controlling everything into the dust bin.

All this to say that when there is so much evidence that supply and demand is not a 100% controlling force, why are we not questioning our thought process on it? It took me awhile as well to realize supply and demand has a powerful nemesis called unionism if we choose to use it.

So back to your original question.

American Airlines gave its pilots a raise because they knew they had too. Not paying equal to other employers leads to labour unrest. New entrants into the industry would pick United or Delta over American. Supply and demand. Current pilots would limit supply. New entrants would limit supply.

This applies to the Air Canada pilots situation in exactly the same way. Air Canada will be willing to pay at least equal to WJ. If they don’t, new entrants will start choosing WJ over AC. Current AC pilots will limit supply. The company will under perform. AC’s willingness to match WJ is all supply and demand related. It is based on no unionism impacting the end result.

Unionisms impact can be measured by the delta between what supply and demand says should happen, and what actually happens in the end result.

American Airlines getting equal to United and Delta all supply and demand. Zero union impact.
WJ getting $50/hour more than an AC 737 CA? Supply and demand dictates matching. The $50 extra is all unionism.
If AC pilots match WJ pilots then that will be all supply and demand related. What if anything AC pilots get above matching WJ will be the result of unionism.
Port of Vancouver. All unionism and supply and demand taking a back seat at about row 20.

The unionism piece, or the delta between what supply and demand dictates and what actually happens, is where the rubber hits the road between supply and demand and unionism. To get anything beyond supply and demand takes determination. It takes a willingness to make them.

[thepoors]

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.

And with all that leverage look at the crap gains they settled for...I hate to say it but I share this pessimism.

AC does not, and will not, need to come to the bargaining table with any appreciable gains for the pilot group while people continue to line up for the garbage they are currently offering.

One point you've missed on the US companies' gains is the 1500hr rule. That's where this all started. It's not a shortage of pilots, it's a shortage of well qualified pilots. If that was put in force here for 705, the regionals would be basically wiped out (are there any FOs at Jazz or Encore with 1500hrs at this point?..) The majors would have very little to pull from. The 1500hr rule was the inciting incident that allowed the unions to push for paying pilots their worth in US (especially at the bottom).

But of course that's wishful thinking in Canada. More likely they will create another TFW pilot program when there aren't any qualified CAs. Increasing hiring/licensing requirements?... unthinkable.

[Fanblade]

There is a common thread here.

Whether supply and demand or the border opening. Everyone looking for some magical event that hands them the value they believe they are worth with no effort on their part.

Then pessimistic views because they don’t think a particular hand out is lining up properly.

Take all that thinking and stick it in the shredder.

There are no freebies. There are no handouts. This isn’t a spectator sport. The ONLY way is to demand it and then be willing to make them.

Normally you have control every 3 to 4 years and make the most of it.

Yeah I get this is the first time in nearly a quarter century for AC pilots. As a result I get why it is so hard to get your heads wrapped around it. You have forgotten how to be a union.

There is no magical event. The magic is when you wake up and realize you are solely responsible for the next contract. When you decide you are not going to let external factors dictate one way or the other. When you decide to demand market rates and be willing to strike for it.

Until you personally are willing to make them? Nothing is going to be achieved. The end result is almost 100% on you. Not supply and demand or the border opening

[Fanblade]

UPS

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66445496

UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 a year

Does anyone have an argument as to how supply and demand was the overriding force in this deal? Lack of people with a driver’s license? This deal, or rather union, shredded supply and demand. The only demand they used was their own.

Vancouver Port workers

https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.co ... port-deal/

Those raises will boost hourly wages to a base rate of $57.51 by 2026.

That’s a starting wage of $115k/year. What is the supply and demand argument for this starting wage? A lack of people with hands and feet?

Supply and demand was an absolute non factor in these deals because of unionism.

Capitalism and Unionism work in opposition to each other. Without unionism Capitalism would not have a middle class. Without Capitalism there would be nothing for the middle class unions to go after.

Yin Yang

You can’t be a good unionist and think like a capitalist. You can’t be a good capitalist and think like a unionist.

[altiplano]

One point you've missed on the US companies' gains is the 1500hr rule. That's where this all started. It's not a shortage of pilots, it's a shortage of well qualified pilots.

Regionals? Sure.

But that was only the coincidence of timing with regard to US Majors and their gains. Pilots and Unions at US Majors started recovering their 2003 losses at this time because they wouldn't accept anything else. Didn't have anything to do with 1500 pilots. 1500 pilots don't get hired at Delta.

Meanwhile at AC we were kicked in the nuts by our own inept leaders (now in management) with TA1, making our post-bankruptcy contract even worse, and then for some reason we locked it all in and then some with a 10 year sub-inflationary deal that we only now find ourselves finally getting out from under.

Our union and it's kunt leadership were the problem at Air Canada. 20 years of apathy in the membership is the problem. A willingness to accept less is the problem.

[M.Caribou]

All very good points and thoughts.

I think it’s fair to point out that “standing up and demanding” better wages is equivalent to an old baboon pounding his chest in an attempt to assert dominance. You can do that all you want but it isn’t going to change anything at the bargaining table. What’s very true is if things get dirty in the media, we as pilots will be portrayed as greedy fly boys and girls making 6 figures just like WJ did to their pilots. Always wanting more!

They know the top 4000 aren’t leaving with the seniority handcuffs. They know anyone 5 years in isn’t going to leave. They know all the young people with no real time aren’t going to leave. Heck even if AC paid a 737 captain $20 less an hour they sure as shit aren’t going to leave for WJ left seat……”because they get to fly the triple in a few years”.

At least you can always go back to the north, I hear some of them are making 4x what first year AC pay is!! That’s supply and demand in its purest form.

[thepoors]

1500 pilots don't get hired at Delta.

But 1500hr pilots are being hired at AC.

Meanwhile at AC we were kicked in the nuts by our own inept leaders (now in management) with TA1, making our post-bankruptcy contract even worse, and then for some reason we locked it all in and then some with a 10 year sub-inflationary deal that we only now find ourselves finally getting out from under.

Our union and it's kunt leadership were the problem at Air Canada. 20 years of apathy in the membership is the problem. A willingness to accept less is the problem.

You're absolutely right, but has anything changed really? I still see a blatant willingness to accept less by this pilot group - i.e. full ground schools every month.

I'm also seeing who's filling those ground schools: 25 year olds still living in mommy's basement who care more about putting on a hat and their barzzz and posing for insta shots in front of an engine nacelle than they do about fair compensation. Because who else can afford to live in YYZ on 55k?.. These are the "passionate about aviation", "fly the flag", "we're just happy to be here" types. They are not going to be standing up for anything and they will vote yes to any dogshit management throws their way.

On the the other end, senior membership is out of touch as ever they don't care about anything but their precious db pensions. So is there enough in the middle, who are between these two groups and have the desire and commitment to drive for real change? That's the question.

[Fanblade]

All very good points and thoughts.

I think it’s fair to point out that “standing up and demanding” better wages is equivalent to an old baboon pounding his chest in an attempt to assert dominance. You can do that all you want but it isn’t going to change anything at the bargaining table. What’s very true is if things get dirty in the media, we as pilots will be portrayed as greedy fly boys and girls making 6 figures just like WJ did to their pilots. Always wanting more!

They know the top 4000 aren’t leaving with the seniority handcuffs. They know anyone 5 years in isn’t going to leave. They know all the young people with no real time aren’t going to leave. Heck even if AC paid a 737 captain $20 less an hour they sure as shit aren’t going to leave for WJ left seat……”because they get to fly the triple in a few years”.

At least you can always go back to the north, I hear some of them are making 4x what first year AC pay is!! That’s supply and demand in its purest form.

You are correct. No amount of chest pounding will impact negotiations at the table or likely get us past WJ’s contract.

It’s the threat of removal of services or actual removal of services that does that. That is where you push past the companies so called line in the sand. That is when you have the ability to make them. At that point supply and demand is usurped. It becomes irrelevant.

The company will not move past the WJ contract until forced. The only decision we have to make is are we willing to force them? If the answer is no then your prediction or pessimism will ring true.

It’s up to us

[dontcallmeshirley]

You're absolutely right, but has anything changed really? I still see a blatant willingness to accept less by this pilot group - i.e. full ground schools every month.

I'm also seeing who's filling those ground schools: 25 year olds still living in mommy's basement who care more about putting on a hat and their barzzz and posing for insta shots in front of an engine nacelle than they do about fair compensation. Because who else can afford to live in YYZ on 55k?.. These are the "passionate about aviation", "fly the flag", "we're just happy to be here" types. They are not going to be standing up for anything and they will vote yes to any dogshit management throws their way.

On the the other end, senior membership is out of touch as ever they don't care about anything but their precious db pensions. So is there enough in the middle, who are between these two groups and have the desire and commitment to drive for real change? That's the question.

How much do you think instructors are making? An instructor making $25/hour would need to do 40 hours of flying per week, every week, to make 50k. For the majority of instructors, that is not just difficult, it's damned near impossible.

Moving up to Air Canada, or even Jazz, is a huge step up. "Better" pay, but more importantly, a steady pay cheque.

[Canuck1988]

1500 pilots don't get hired at Delta.

But 1500hr pilots are being hired at AC.

Meanwhile at AC we were kicked in the nuts by our own inept leaders (now in management) with TA1, making our post-bankruptcy contract even worse, and then for some reason we locked it all in and then some with a 10 year sub-inflationary deal that we only now find ourselves finally getting out from under.

Our union and it's kunt leadership were the problem at Air Canada. 20 years of apathy in the membership is the problem. A willingness to accept less is the problem.

You're absolutely right, but has anything changed really? I still see a blatant willingness to accept less by this pilot group - i.e. full ground schools every month.

I'm also seeing who's filling those ground schools: 25 year olds still living in mommy's basement who care more about putting on a hat and their barzzz and posing for insta shots in front of an engine nacelle than they do about fair compensation. Because who else can afford to live in YYZ on 55k?.. These are the "passionate about aviation", "fly the flag", "we're just happy to be here" types. They are not going to be standing up for anything and they will vote yes to any dogshit management throws their way.

On the the other end, senior membership is out of touch as ever they don't care about anything but their precious db pensions. So is there enough in the middle, who are between these two groups and have the desire and commitment to drive for real change? That's the question.

I’m going to have to strongly disagree about your second paragraph. Yes, there are some young ones in the ground schools, but there are a lot of 30+ year olds too. And do you think they enjoy “living in mommy’s basement?” They’re probably appalled just as much as you that they are working for a flag carrier and will not be able to afford a house for the foreseeable future. Scratch that, I know they’re appalled.

[thepoors]

1500 pilots don't get hired at Delta.

But 1500hr pilots are being hired at AC.

Meanwhile at AC we were kicked in the nuts by our own inept leaders (now in management) with TA1, making our post-bankruptcy contract even worse, and then for some reason we locked it all in and then some with a 10 year sub-inflationary deal that we only now find ourselves finally getting out from under.

Our union and it's kunt leadership were the problem at Air Canada. 20 years of apathy in the membership is the problem. A willingness to accept less is the problem.

You're absolutely right, but has anything changed really? I still see a blatant willingness to accept less by this pilot group - i.e. full ground schools every month.

I'm also seeing who's filling those ground schools: 25 year olds still living in mommy's basement who care more about putting on a hat and their barzzz and posing for insta shots in front of an engine nacelle than they do about fair compensation. Because who else can afford to live in YYZ on 55k?.. These are the "passionate about aviation", "fly the flag", "we're just happy to be here" types. They are not going to be standing up for anything and they will vote yes to any dogshit management throws their way.

On the the other end, senior membership is out of touch as ever they don't care about anything but their precious db pensions. So is there enough in the middle, who are between these two groups and have the desire and commitment to drive for real change? That's the question.

I’m going to have to strongly disagree about your second paragraph. Yes, there are some young ones in the ground schools, but there are a lot of 30+ year olds too. And do you think they enjoy “living in mommy’s basement?” They’re probably appalled just as much as you that they are working for a flag carrier and will not be able to afford a house for the foreseeable future. Scratch that, I know they’re appalled.

Then what are they doing there??... Why are they accepting the job if they're so appalled? It's easy to be appalled and do nothing about it.

[sstaurus]

But 1500hr pilots are being hired at AC.



You're absolutely right, but has anything changed really? I still see a blatant willingness to accept less by this pilot group - i.e. full ground schools every month.

I'm also seeing who's filling those ground schools: 25 year olds still living in mommy's basement who care more about putting on a hat and their barzzz and posing for insta shots in front of an engine nacelle than they do about fair compensation. Because who else can afford to live in YYZ on 55k?.. These are the "passionate about aviation", "fly the flag", "we're just happy to be here" types. They are not going to be standing up for anything and they will vote yes to any dogshit management throws their way.

On the the other end, senior membership is out of touch as ever they don't care about anything but their precious db pensions. So is there enough in the middle, who are between these two groups and have the desire and commitment to drive for real change? That's the question.

I’m going to have to strongly disagree about your second paragraph. Yes, there are some young ones in the ground schools, but there are a lot of 30+ year olds too. And do you think they enjoy “living in mommy’s basement?” They’re probably appalled just as much as you that they are working for a flag carrier and will not be able to afford a house for the foreseeable future. Scratch that, I know they’re appalled.

Then what are they doing there??... Why are they accepting the job if they're so appalled? It's easy to be appalled and do nothing about it.

You seem to have come from Jazz and done the same, so it seems a bit disingenuous to be lumping all the new guys in the same ‘instagram in mommy’s basement’ group. Many of us have 0 loyalty to the company yet and are fully willing to walk for anything even slightly substandard.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

Has anyone heard from the FedEx pilots?

They aren't hiring anymore but we're offered a 30% pay increase, plus 30% increase to the legacy pension and a company-funded replacement for the legacy pension.

The deal represented the largest investment in a pilot contract in history, on a per-capita basis, and that it substantially raised the bar on pilot retirement

They voted it down

I guess they think they have leverage or something?!

[Protonpilot]

Has anyone heard from the FedEx pilots?

They aren't hiring anymore but we're offered a 30% pay increase, plus 30% increase to the legacy pension and a company-funded replacement for the legacy pension.

The deal represented the largest investment in a pilot contract in history, on a per-capita basis, and that it substantially raised the bar on pilot retirement

They voted it down

I guess they think they have leverage or something?!

FedEx pilots turned down the TA because of scope. The TA gave the company a lot of leeway to outsource flying.

You can have the best pay rates in the industry, but if you have no scope language to protect those high paying jobs for the next generation then you don't really have anything.

[Canpilot7]

All very good points and thoughts.

I think it’s fair to point out that “standing up and demanding” better wages is equivalent to an old baboon pounding his chest in an attempt to assert dominance. You can do that all you want but it isn’t going to change anything at the bargaining table. What’s very true is if things get dirty in the media, we as pilots will be portrayed as greedy fly boys and girls making 6 figures just like WJ did to their pilots. Always wanting more!

They know the top 4000 aren’t leaving with the seniority handcuffs. They know anyone 5 years in isn’t going to leave. They know all the young people with no real time aren’t going to leave. Heck even if AC paid a 737 captain $20 less an hour they sure as shit aren’t going to leave for WJ left seat……”because they get to fly the triple in a few years”.

At least you can always go back to the north, I hear some of them are making 4x what first year AC pay is!! That’s supply and demand in its purest form.

If they go to the media it doesn't do anything at the negotiation table, it'd be like an equivalent to an old baboon pounding his chest in an attempt to assert dominance.

Simple answer to "you're overpaid" is handing the negotiating committee a mandate to get delta contract or better, same as the CEO. If they want to get substandard wages despite their CEO making it clear that'd be stupid in his own negotiation, then that's gonna have to go on behind closed doors.