A certain Tier 3 Operator

$71 a barrel · Post by **$71 a barrel** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:23 pm

Somebody got the irony!

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:40 pm

You know a while back there was a thread on pilots being smart alecky on the radio and demonstrating unprofessionalism. I have noticed since then that the radio talk has been a lot more professional.

I also noticed in my travels today that all the CMA crews seemed more professional and demonstrated good airmanship.

Perhaps all this was really mindlessness and all the crews needed was a reminder on this forum that what they were doing was not funny to anybody but themselves . Perhaps some of the crews had a talk with the offensive crews.

Whatever the reason, the CMA stuff I heard today at several airports was top notch.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:48 pm

It doesnt bother anyone else that there was a one post wonder named $70 a barrel flaming a company, and then anther one post wonder named $71 a barrel flaming $70 a barrel for flaming the company?!?

Gotta start somewhere and CMA's just as good as any to get it from a rookie. Besides it's a pretty legit beef if it's true.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:34 pm

I sure hope we don't get all the way up to $72 a barrel, who knows where this could lead...

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:13 am

JigglyBus wrote:I hate to be the one to say it, but perhaps these habits start from the top down?

I think that could be a fairly accurate assessment, but the other thing here is that you have almost an entire pool of pilots who started as 200hr right seaters. Combine that with the fact they(the Capt's) have been in the same company culture for several years, it's understandable. Depth of experience is so important, and when you only see one airplane on the same routes for years... well, you get the idea.

Watching them several years ago when they first started flying charters to um, "Northern Canada," that being Peace River, High Level etc, was positvely infuriating. None of them had any experience in uncontolled airspace, uncontolled airports, etc etc.

It's a company culture where a bunch of ppl feel that they've made the big time bombing around in their 1900... Run away!

STL

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:15 am

You'll have to get with the times, sky. In a company with almost 100 pilots, there are probably fewer than 10 "200 hr wonders" here anymore. The widespread hiring of low timers has largely ended, save for the token 1 or 2 rampies that get onto each course- and even then most have more than that from instructing or skydiving previously.
I'd rank CMA as the safest airline I've worked for, and it's because of adherence to SOPs and a company aversion to breaking regs just to save a couple of minutes (ours or somebody else's). It's a shame that "up north", as you say, standards for safety and professionalism are often measured in how low you can fly to get in, or how early you can cancel IFR. Furthermore, anytime a company begins operating a new route or new type, there is bound to be hangups and mistakes as other companies that have already been there and done that observe the growing process.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:36 am

DJ,

Just how many "Airlines" have you worked for?

And your assumption about my Northern refence tells it all. Some of the most proffessional and safe pilots I've ever worked with have been in the "North," ie the Territorties/Alaska. So you're telling me that new route teething problems include no maps on board on an IMC day, and not being able to comply with a hold because they couldn't find the fix....? Safe, you bet.

Nobody is condoning breaking of rules or poor airmanship, but generally speaking the life of a CMA pilot is rather sheltered and lacking in range of experience - uncontrolled airport/airspace, gravel/snow covered runways, and the ability to plan the flight to new destinations. That is what what makes starting new routes, types, and charter work safe, not SOP's, and the so called proffesionalism of nice hats and coats with bars.

Real proffessionalism lies in the safe, timely operation of your a/c, while being aware of your surroundings, whether that be other a/c, the weather, or the airspace classification.

No one is suggesting that all CMA pilots are duds, not the case, but as a company there has been a certain culture that has existed for much longer than you seem to have been around.

Safe flying,

STL

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:32 am

generally speaking the life of a CMA pilot is rather sheltered and lacking in range of experience - uncontrolled airport/airspace, gravel/snow covered runways, and the ability to plan the flight to new destinations.

By that standard, the life of an Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz, and Cathay pilot is rather sheltered as well. You're comparing apples to oranges, man. CMA is a scheduled regional airline that does the odd charter. Compare Cariboo to Sunwest to Borek- those are the charters. Compare CMA to Peace Air to Jazz- those are the regionals.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:30 am

Last time I checked, they do charters too, and did a lot of them a few years ago, maybe you need to re-evaluate your comparisons... Apples come in many different colours you know.

So I take it you must agree with the rest of what I said?

Point of the thread is the lack of apparent airmanship coming from that particular outft, no different than talking about the "Borek Attitude." It's there, we talk about it.

STL

Flying Nutcracker · Post by **Flying Nutcracker** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:27 pm

BLAAAH BLAAAH BLAAAAAH!!!!

In a world where everybody is looking for time in the logbook, the idiot is the one complaining about having to wait for someone else!!!

Keeping it safe is ok, keeping it safer is even better, although not always efficient!

As for someones obvious lack of an understanding of the big picture when they go flying, well they will get it with time! And some are and will be just idiots...

Just enjoy your flying people! Eventually you will never have to cancel IFR again!

FN

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:40 pm

I love these guys. Jumping to conclusions after one experience. Of course you are going to be better versed at uncontrolled if that is primarily what you do. Try coming down into high density airspace more than once every decade. I love hearing all the stuttering and wierd stuff northern guys say. But I would never hold it against them. Its out of there norm. Big deal. All high and mighty "I've been further North than thee". Give me a break. If you're happy doing bush stuff, great! But if so, why do you feel the need to bash those that dont?

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:55 pm

EyeOh,

Of course you're right.

It's not a CMA thing, it's not even a Lattitude thing. It's a systemic problem where there are far too many guys running around with a grosely overinflated sense of entitlement, and they just don't seem to understand the value of experience.

In this world 2000hrs in the same machine, flying the same routes day in and day out, for often the same company, makes one an "experienced" pilot.

I guess some of us just don't see it that way, and for that, I ask your forgivenss. Believe me, it's not a Northern thing, as I can assure you some of us have flown further South than most. The point is, when you are in a new environment, prepare yourself, when you are operating around others, be courteous, and above all, understand that none of us know everything. Just ask the likes of Cat Driver.

STL

PS - These threads come up about once every six months... wonder why?

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:30 pm

EyeOh wrote:I love these guys. Jumping to conclusions after one experience. Of course you are going to be better versed at uncontrolled if that is primarily what you do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but CMA is based in Smithers, which is an uncontrolled airport served by an FSS. Why shouldn't their pilots be well versed in uncontrolled airspace procedures?

I agree with STL, though, I doubt it has anything to do specifically with airspace or CMA. I haven't seen anyone from CMA do this (as they don't fly here), but it isn't specific to them, and I'd be very suprised if it's a widespread thing within the company. The people I do see pull this crap arn't all from one airline, arn't all low time, and arn't all unfamiliar with the airspace. Pilots who are unfamiliar with procedures usually don't act like arrogant assholes (thank god!), they act slightly confused and/or ask what the proper procedure is. At least that's my experience dealing with southern Canadian pilots who come up here for fishing once a year, and US pilots.

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:27 pm

I agree with you grimey. Except the CMA comment. 90% of the pilots have never been to YYD. Each base is very regional. It's almost like four diff. companies.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:48 pm

Ok so, out of YVR you would go to William's Lake, Quesnel, Campbell River

Out of YYC you would see Lloydminster, High Level, Rainbow Lake....

And out of Prince George you would go to Kamloops and Smithers....

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:23 pm

sky's the limit wrote: I think that could be a fairly accurate assessment, but the other thing here is that you have almost an entire pool of pilots who started as 200hr right seaters. Combine that with the fact they(the Capt's) have been in the same company culture for several years, it's understandable. Depth of experience is so important, and when you only see one airplane on the same routes for years... well, you get the idea.

I agree about this assessment. I've worked for one large 704 operator where attitudes get passed on and passed on down the line until nobody knows where thay came from. There's this attitude that if you earned your stars and stripes somewhere else you haven't earned them at all.

They hire 200 hour pilots off the street, treat them like worthless pieces of shit, and 3-4000 hours later they upgrade them. These captains have swallowed so much garbage from the top down in their tenure that they don't know any different. They think that new guys are supposed to be treated like pieces of shit. And on and on it goes.

I'm not suggesting CMA treats people like shit. In fact I understand that employees there are well treated. However when virtually all promotion is from within, and people spend their entire primary aviation education there they tend not to see the larger picture. Sure maybe they make great Air Canada pilots, but they aren't usually the best outside the box thinkers. Why would they be? It's all about conditioning.

Cloud 9 · Post by **Cloud 9** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:02 pm

Dockjock wrote:It's a shame that "up north", as you say, standards for safety and professionalism are often measured in how low you can fly to get in, or how early you can cancel IFR.

I have no beef with CMA pilots whatsoever. I do however take offense with the above comment. I happen to work for a 'Northern operator' and it's clear that you've either never worked up here and/or you're just plain ignorant. My co-workers and I take great pride in our jobs, our machines, our adherence to regs/SOPs and our airman/airpersonship.

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:21 pm

Dockjock wrote:It's a shame that "up north", as you say, standards for safety and professionalism are often measured in how low you can fly to get in, or how early you can cancel IFR. Furthermore, anytime a company begins operating a new route or new type, there is bound to be hangups and mistakes as other companies that have already been there and done that observe the growing process.

I think this just goes to show the ignorance of the attitude. It's got nothing to do with 'how low you can fly' or 'how early you can cancel'. It's all about courtesy. A severe clear blue skies day, and you are descending thru 12,500. There is absolutely NO safety concern with cancelling the ifr, but it does release the climb corridor so that the guy waiting on the ground can get an ifr release to climb out of there. It's called 'courtesy'. Courtesy is something that I have to agree with other posters here, it's something thats definitively lacking with most folks driving that fleet of 1900's around. To be quite blunt about it, it's not just lacking, it's non-existant.

I used to think that not cancelling was just inexperience on the part of the pilots on those planes. Reading on this thread, it's becoming apparent that it's company SOP. I guess what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. It's always been my habit to cancel on the descent thru 12,500 on nice days, just to allow the folks waiting on the ground to go. I think now I'll start checking with FSS and see just who is waiting on the ground for an ifr release. If it's a beech 1900, i think now the procedure will be to pull the throttles back, enjoy the scenery, and take the long roundabout way in just like they do, flying the full ifr procedure in severe clear blue skies. They dont seem to ever give a damn about anybody else stuck on the ground waiting, why not return the favour and let them sit there burning fuel and ticking up time on those expensive turbines for no good reason whatsoever, except that I'm not cancelling ifr to let them get out. Gonna be all over the province tomorrow, think we'll try this concept out, see how it works.

Flying Nutcracker · Post by **Flying Nutcracker** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:03 pm

I seem to recall something called a VFR-departure!?!?! Does that still exist? If so... what is the big problem??? ATC??? I fly around alot north of the 49th and haven't really seen too much of this problem, so maybe someone can enlighten me?!?!? Maybe it's because I always cancel myself... and try to be courteous to everybody...??? If I am not mistaking CMA does some flying for AC/JAZZ and their agreement is based on a certain degree of strict SOP and Regs... don't know if this issue is because of this?

Uncomfortable Silence · Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:52 pm

Oh goody, goody! Do we all get to tattle on each other? Like the time a certain Jetstream operator from South AB got their clearance while still boarding pax stranding us on the ground with both turning...or a PC-12 operator in North AB taxied in front without talking or looking first cutting us off on a crowded, icy ramp leaving us trapped behind with a clearance and no access to the runway...or maybe the King Air that parked in front of the fuel and wandered off to take a 30 minute piss while we waited for access...or while we're at it, this little old lady at the grocery store had one to many items in the busy express lane the other day and still insisted on paying with exact change.

Whats the matter, were you 10 minutes late for the latest episode of Desperate Housewives? The earlier post about collecting the extra .1 in the logbook and going home is exactly right. It's only a few minutes and the cost of operating in busy airports with limited services and information.

I am still blown away by the incredible number of people who make no mistakes in their aviation career. It seems that these same people are also continuously surrounded by bumbling fools and village idiots that are lucky to make it through the day without drooling on themselves. Are these people so blinded by their own ego and sense of self importance that they never see their own errors. I am just as concerned by that attitude, as I am by someone who is overly cautious and dosen't have the common sense to cancel IFR on a VFR day.

I am willing to speculate that most flight crews, regardless of the company, do not go out of their way to screw other aircraft. It's called human error and it's why companies now spend thousands of dollars on CRM. Unfortunately, I have now lost my naivety. While some pilots may make ignorant, uncourteous mistakes; I am far more disturbed by the malicious response. Do you really think that the pilot, especially at a Tier 3, really cares that they spend the extra time on the ground. They are probably happy to collect the extra couple of minutes of bankable time, go home, kiss their signifigant other, have a beer, and pass the operating cost onto the company. They're not paying for the aircraft, the company is. Maybe if you're lucky you can do it enough to make the infringing company fold, that way there can be that many fewer jobs out there for everyone.

I'm pretty sure that I got taught when I was in preschool that 2 wrongs don't make a right. People are people, mistakes do happen; the solution is to limit their impact on yourself. Think about it next time you realize you may have just cut someone off in the pattern because you misjudged their distance/time to the field. It may be me; and I'll probably do a 360, rejoin final, chalk it up to unintentional mistake, a log the extra .1 on my way to the next job.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:29 am

Never really flown in CMA's territory or know anyone that flies there. Some have mentioned that it's an SOP thing, but still it seems as though some people still complain about them not cancelling. There are some companies that by SOP are NOT allowed to cancel the IFR. I work for a company that wants us IFR at all times, unless it's a training flight. I'm not even allowed to take a VFR departure, as they don't care how long it takes me to get to my destination. Most days it doesn't really affect me on the ground, however I do feel bad if there's Jazz or someone else on the ramp waiting for a clearance and I can't cancel to help them out a bit.

However, if some people are concerned about being cautious on a screaming VFR day there's such a thing as overkill. The way I did it up in NWO was to cancel the IFR once we had the field in sight but to keep the alerting services. That way whoever was sitting on the ground could still at least get their clearance, without having to sacrifice too much. I'm not sure though, maybe that's how you guys do it out there already? Like I said, I'm not from out there so I can only sit idly by and watch you guys claw at each others' throats.

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:12 am

Well I think the nail was hit promtly on the head. If the wx is so freakin great. Ask for a VFR departure. Or if "There is absolutely NO safety concern with cancelling the ifr" and YOUR SOPs dont limit you, why dont you just freaking go VFR yourself. Im not saying courtesy shouldnt be a concern, but I know Im not breaking SOPs just so your company can stay afloat for 3 more months.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:00 am

Uncomfortable Silence, confuzed, and EyeOh- thank you for your perspective. This was getting ridiculous. I've done my share of flying in northern AB, BC, and ON, and have to say that this beef about people (from any company) not cancelling IFR just to hold up the competition is totally bogus. It's happens to me probably once or twice a year. Or maybe I just don't notice it anymore because I've already departed VFR and am long gone by the time the potential offender has landed.

The CMA hate is fuelled in part by jealousy (yes I will take flak for this)of the constant progression of pilots to the 'majors', which some view as queue jumping in the career lineup. It's gotten so bad that when just trying to shoot the shit with other pilots on the ramp, one of the first things that gets blurted out is, "so you must be on your way to AC pretty soon eh?" through clenched teeth. Err, I dunno man. I've applied and am waiting just like everyone else. Its the same as the anti-college bias that exists at some companies. Just because back in 1972 AC hired a bunch of captains kids right out of school- well now all aviation-college students are arrogant jerks born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Go to college and then work at CMA?! Hell that's just asking for trouble! It's the Canadian way though....

Besides all that though, there is one CMA related development that may actually make this sentiment worse. It is the IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA) certification process that the company is forced to comply with in order to be a contractor to Air Canada. Once IOSA procedures are in place, there will be NO VFR whatsoever. Hopefully I'm gone by then.

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:04 am

Dockjock wrote: Once IOSA procedures are in place, there will be NO VFR whatsoever. Hopefully I'm gone by then.

That is a terrifying prospect with regard to the efficiency of certain airports. (Don't know about any that CMA flies into specifically.)

snag · Post by **snag** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:14 am

Uncomfortable Silence,

Honestly, the best post I've read all month.