WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:26 pm
Tony Soprano wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:04 pm What would you consider fair? Honest question.
You didn't ask me, but you're getting my answer anyway...

WS/WO/WR reserved seniority list and Sunwing seniority list merged based on date of hire. In the case of a WS/WO/WR start date on the same day as a WG start date, do a zipper merge with the WS pilot coming first (benefit to the purchasing airline).
Agreed. Fences are also needed in my opinion. At least for a certain amount of time. Position and base protected for an agreed amount of time.
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pacman007
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by pacman007 »

well in my opinion.....
Everyone holds what there seniority number can hold period. Merge DOH is fine but NO ONE out of seniority! We did this already with swoop and we all know how that went.
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shellkibbles
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by shellkibbles »

Is this actually a merger? To my understanding WestJet purchased Sunwing. Plus WestJet utilizes it's pilots much more efficiently than Sunwing so I would be surprised if WestJet doesn't want all the Sunwing pilots to move over. So maybe DOH but half of the pilot list gets cut from the start?
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by JBI »

shellkibbles wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:50 pm Is this actually a merger? To my understanding WestJet purchased Sunwing. Plus WestJet utilizes it's pilots much more efficiently than Sunwing so I would be surprised if WestJet doesn't want all the Sunwing pilots to move over. So maybe DOH but half of the pilot list gets cut from the start?
Yes, legally it’s a merger.

Yes, WestJet wants all SWG’s pilots

No, half the seniority list will not get cut :roll:
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Latest union email mentions that the Encore MEC will have a seat at the table during merger talks. The Encore and Ex-encore guys will come out of this really fucked seeing as Sunwing pilots will be offered some sort of YOS while Encore once again get nothing (despite flying WestJet tails for years). Another nail in the coffin for Encore as it continues to wind down.
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cdnavater
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by cdnavater »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:36 am Latest union email mentions that the Encore MEC will have a seat at the table during merger talks. The Encore and Ex-encore guys will come out of this really fucked seeing as Sunwing pilots will be offered some sort of YOS while Encore once again get nothing (despite flying WestJet tails for years). Another nail in the coffin for Encore as it continues to wind down.
That’s a bit of a conundrum, Encore being a separate company on paper, would not be part of the merger process. Having a seat at the table won’t change things much, I assume the pilot who remain at Encore that are on the old list will still get their spot on the new list.
What are they entitled to when the go over to mainline?
There is no question this merger will go to arbitration, but in reality the Encore pilots who did flow got what was agreed to.

Just think about what you said, despite flying WJ tails for years, this is no different than Jazz pilots going to AC. Jazz was a wholly owned subsidiary of AC and even now AC has complete control of our payroll, to the extent we had an agreement with our company that AC ripped up.
Jazz pilots get nothing for any service going to AC and the only reason Encore pilots were is because both groups had agreed to a flow list. I would expect, not much will come of any protest by Encore pilots.
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N181CS
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by N181CS »

Relative seniority is the only way any merger should be done at any airline.
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ant_321
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by ant_321 »

N181CS wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 am Relative seniority is the only way any merger should be done at any airline.
I like the way you think. I would gain about 10 years. 😂
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rudder
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by rudder »

ant_321 wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:22 am
N181CS wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 am Relative seniority is the only way any merger should be done at any airline.
I like the way you think. I would gain about 10 years. 😂
Just take a look at the jurisprudence under the current ALPA merger policy. Variations on a theme but the theme is fairly consistent.

WJ can claim a history one decade longer. In the grand scheme of things that does not create an apples vs oranges scenario. Just apples vs slightly older apples. Also single fleet type with single pay grid.

Take a good look at the Alaska/Virgin America award. The concepts applied could well apply in the WJ/SW integration.

FWIW - in that merger the parties agreed on format (ratio) just didn’t agree on the formulas. That is what the parties submitted to arbitration.
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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

N181CS wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 am Relative seniority is the only way any merger should be done at any airline.
That's ideal if two airlines are relatively the same age and size. The issue is, Sunwing and the WestJet group are not.

What would end up happening with relative seniority is that Sunwing pilots with a decade less seniority than their WestJet counterparts would end up above the WestJet pilot.

IMHO, the most fair approach would be DOH without a vacancy bid. A Sunwing captain would keep their current captain spot in their current base out of seniority unless they bid for a different position.

Code: Select all

+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
|                  | WestJet               | Sunwing         | [Difference]              |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Created          | 1996 (27 years)       | 2005 (18 Years) | 9 Years                   |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Number of Pilots | 2300                  | 450             | 1850                      |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Aircraft         | 7 787s                | 19 737s         | 85 737s                   |
|                  | 104 737s              |                 | 108 Aircraft (+12 parked) |
|                  | 35 Q400s (+12 parked) |                 |                           |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Pilot Union      | ALPA                  | CUPE            |                           |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
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cdnavater
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by cdnavater »

dontcallmeshirley wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:43 am
N181CS wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 am Relative seniority is the only way any merger should be done at any airline.
That's ideal if two airlines are relatively the same age and size. The issue is, Sunwing and the WestJet group are not.

What would end up happening with relative seniority is that Sunwing pilots with a decade less seniority than their WestJet counterparts would end up above the WestJet pilot.

IMHO, the most fair approach would be DOH without a vacancy bid. A Sunwing captain would keep their current captain spot in their current base out of seniority unless they bid for a different position.

Code: Select all

+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
|                  | WestJet               | Sunwing         | [Difference]              |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Created          | 1996 (27 years)       | 2005 (18 Years) | 9 Years                   |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Number of Pilots | 2300                  | 450             | 1850                      |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Aircraft         | 7 787s                | 19 737s         | 85 737s                   |
|                  | 104 737s              |                 | 108 Aircraft (+12 parked) |
|                  | 35 Q400s (+12 parked) |                 |                           |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
| Pilot Union      | ALPA                  | CUPE            |                           |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------+---------------------------+
Just curious, when was Encore created?
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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

cdnavater wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:21 pm Just curious, when was Encore created?
10 years ago in 2013. It has been wholly owned by WestJet and has flown only for WestJet this entire time. The Pilot Transfer Agreement, containing the reserved seniority number for all Encore pilots on property prior to December 31, 2022, was agreed to by all parties well before a Sunwing merger came into the picture.

Any attempt by Sunwing pilots to undermine Encore pilots on the reserved seniority list will not be taken lying down and will be met with anger by Encore pilots and most WestJet pilots. The only WestJetters who it could help is former Swoop pilots.
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cdnavater
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by cdnavater »

dontcallmeshirley wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:46 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:21 pm Just curious, when was Encore created?
10 years ago in 2013. It has been wholly owned by WestJet and has flown only for WestJet this entire time. The Pilot Transfer Agreement, containing the reserved seniority number for all Encore pilots on property prior to December 31, 2022, was agreed to by all parties well before a Sunwing merger came into the picture.

Any attempt by Sunwing pilots to undermine Encore pilots on the reserved seniority list will not be taken lying down and will be met with anger by Encore pilots and most WestJet pilots. The only WestJetters who it could help is former Swoop pilots.
For sure, I would expect Encore pilots to defend the list that was agreed to, what I’m saying is your agreement doesn’t come with much if I remember correctly. You get slotted in for seniority but start at year 1 for pay etc…
I just don’t know what leg your standing on, if you’re not already on the list when it merges, you are a separate company and other than where you slot in when you do flow, that wouldn’t change. The company follows the flow when it feels like and if you wanted pay progression when flow, it should’ve been negotiated before.
I’m getting, you’re mad because a company that does the exact same work on the same equipment as WJ is going to merge and likely get some formula of YOS but you(Encore pilots) don’t.
It’s not like WJ bought another Q operator and is merging them into to mainline. If you had common employer status or were merged in, different story but you are a separate company with a seniority number, you will not get a windfall from this merger
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by lostaviator »

2:1 ratio with no fences. I am sorry but we can't have captains with 3 years seniority holding a left seat when the larger carrier has a 10 year upgrade.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by Bede »

lostaviator wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:13 am 2:1 ratio with no fences. I am sorry but we can't have captains with 3 years seniority holding a left seat when the larger carrier has a 10 year upgrade.
I think there's some confusion about what a ratio means. A 2:1 ratio would be 2 WJ pilots, then 1 WJ pilot until you run out of pilots at one property and then everyone below would be bottom of the list. Given those ratios, you'd blend 1000 WJ pilots with 500 SWG pilots and end up with 600 WJ pilots at the BOTL.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

Bede wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:40 am
lostaviator wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:13 am 2:1 ratio with no fences. I am sorry but we can't have captains with 3 years seniority holding a left seat when the larger carrier has a 10 year upgrade.
I think there's some confusion about what a ratio means. A 2:1 ratio would be 2 WJ pilots, then 1 WJ pilot until you run out of pilots at one property and then everyone below would be bottom of the list. Given those ratios, you'd blend 1000 WJ pilots with 500 SWG pilots and end up with 600 WJ pilots at the BOTL.
That seems to benefit only one group of pilots.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by frog »

No idea what is going to be negotiated but I bet WJ is going to try to avoid upgrading a bunch of Westjet FOs who have 10 YOS and downgrading swg captains.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by TommyJet »

shellkibbles wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:50 pm Is this actually a merger? To my understanding WestJet purchased Sunwing. Plus WestJet utilizes it's pilots much more efficiently than Sunwing so I would be surprised if WestJet doesn't want all the Sunwing pilots to move over. So maybe DOH but half of the pilot list gets cut from the start?
Did Westjet Airlines purchase Sunwing Airlines? Or did Onex private capital (Westjet an Alberta Partnership? Westjet Group of Companies? Kestrel Bidco?) purchase the Sunwing Vacation Group and decide to merge their two vacation groups under a single management and their two airlines under a single AOC? Because, you know, synergies.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by daedalusx »

Personally I think the most fair is merge by DOH. All WG pilot keeps their bases. WG Capts that get bumped down to FO gets full pay protection.
This will sucks for senior west based WG FOs as it will stall their career progression but they will get a pay bump and better benefits.

Airline mergers sucks and there’s always losers and winners. Ask the Canadian Regional/Air BC guys.

I’d love relative seniority but the odds of that happening are slim to none and would probably cause division in the flight deck.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by N181CS »

Sounds like a lot of Jr. Captains on here…. All the bennis for them but F the guys at the top and bottom…

Why would Jr. Captains get to keep their positions or keep their pay? So would WG Sr. FOs get a pay increase relative to when they would have been upgraded?

A proper relative seniority would take into account the age of both airlines. I don’t think there are too many at WS from 96…. And it is socialized bidding so it’s not even that bad for the WS guys…
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Reading this thread gives me PTSD. I remember the 28 year old A-310 Captain from Wardair, with 12 months service, demanding that he be a 767 Captain (which took 25 years) on the combined Seniority list at Canadi>n.

And the snot nosed RJ FO at AC mouthing off that the 747-400 Captain from Canadi>n goes to the bottom of the AC List. Mergers bring out the worst of Mankind.

The ALPA Merger language means nothing if this goes in front of an Arbitrator, history has proved that. The fact that SW hires 250 hour FO's and WJ doesn't, is about the lamest thing I have read in a long time. Reminds me of the days it was argued that the day you acquired an ATPL gave you a National Seniority Number.

DOH with fences is the only fair way, the 4 year SW Captain gets a transition time to hang-on to the seat / base and the 15 year WJ FO is not punished for the years of service. The fences eventually come down and life moves forward.
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by J Roc »

This inevitably goes in front of an arbitrator, given the complexity of merging two pilot lists plus Encore pilots applying for intervener status. It's best people mentally prepare for that now and hope for the best at the table.

Suppose it goes to arbitration, which im sure it will, then you should expect anything. An arbitrator will not severely disadvantage one group over another. It won't happen, so quit with the BOTL talk. An arbitrator will strive to minimize a negative impact on as many people as possible, and I suspect positions will be held out of seniority for a while. People should start focusing on their individual silver linings sooner rather than later.
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rudder
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by rudder »

Stu Pidasso wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:07 am
The ALPA Merger language means nothing if this goes in front of an Arbitrator, history has proved that.
With all due respect, that is not the case.

In fact, the ALPA Merger Policy is the guardrails for the process and the result. And it does, to a certain extent, form the terms of reference for the arbitrator(s).
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by sarg »

J Roc wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 9:08 am

Suppose it goes to arbitration, which im sure it will, then you should expect anything. An arbitrator will not severely disadvantage one group over another. It won't happen, so quit with the BOTL talk. An arbitrator will strive to minimize a negative impact on as many people as possible, and I suspect positions will be held out of seniority for a while. People should start focusing on their individual silver linings sooner rather than later.
Which is why DOH with fences is the most likely outcome.

Senior SW pilots will have the same chance of going on a 87 as WJ pilots with a similar YOS. SW pilots had no expectations of being WB pilots until the merger was announced, and most WJ pilots will not see a significant delay in their progression. The fences will keep junior SW pilots in their seat and base, which will delay the upgrade of some WJ FOs, but the cost to the junior SW Captains is a long sit on the bottom of the reserve list. I don't know how much of a hit a new hire SW FO would take, maybe someone would care weigh in on that.

The big question is what will happen to Encore pilots that flowed after the PTA was cancelled and the merger announced, followed the the group that flowed after the PTA was cancelled. Yes, I know what the PTA said in regards to reserved seniority numbers but an arbitrator might rule otherwise.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

Post by Stu Pidasso »

I completely disagree Rudder, Arbitrators have the latitude to do whatever they like, once you hand over the process to them. The ALPA Merger Policy isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Remember there is three parties to this (and all) mergers, the two Pilot groups and the Employer.
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