ACA starting position

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cdnavater
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by cdnavater »

Janitroll wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:41 am
braaap Braap wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:19 am Many of these places used to pay less than Canadian Regionals before the 1,500 hr rule. And let’s stop pretending those places are shining examples of good places to work. We’re all googly eyed at the $$ but does anyone have any real experience with what the US regional scene is like? Whipsaw and instability left and right (Expressjet, Commutair, Compass, etc)

At US regional, if you don’t like the job you can go to the next company. Your pay scale related to your experience, so you don’t start from the bottom.

If you were a 2 year FO at ALPA’s PAL in eastern Canada, with 1500 hours of time flying for PAL, and you were sick of PAL and wanted to go to Jazz
You’d still have to pay out $10k of the $26k PAL bond to leave Jazz, you’d start at Jazz bottom of scale pay for new hire pilots $60k.

If you were in the US & went to PSA Air, place 1500 hours and 2 years in the PSA pay calculator, with no referrals

https://psaairlines.com/pilot-wage-calculator/
Year 1 pay - $248,790 US - $335k Canadian - to fly a regional jet - no major airline
Year 2 pay - $320,171
Year 3 pay - $327,461
Year 4 pay - $341,906 US - $460k Canadian

& the calculator is dated, the pay rates have gone up since it was placed online

In Canada you pay out the $10k bond start at $60k, net $50k.
In the US $335k – %650 higher

On top of pay, your vacation and benefits are linked to your years at your previous carrier. You get more vacation time, instead of starting at entry level.
100% deadhead pay

First class deadheads
4 commuter hotels a month paid
Reserved commuter seating, space available highest class, not standby
300 Percent Pay Incentive for open time
https://www.flyingmag.com/envoy-air-off ... incentive/


AC CBA
Include contract lines which have 200 - 300% higher pay rates for extra work, flying outside schedule, picking up open time
Overtime at %200 not %150, %300 during holiday times
100% deadhead pay, including the time waiting in security lines and to board
100% pay for delays, company delays, airport delays, weather delays, ATC delays
100% pay for all duty time

Stop flat pay, AC pilots still defend the flat pay

Stop signing bonds at ALPA.
PAL -$26k bond, who signs this?

$31k bond at Pacific Coastal to fly Encore routes with the WestJet tail & brand - and Encore pilots wonder why Encore's shrinking size?
Undercutting Encore, based on pilots who are willing to sign $31k multi year bonds which prevent them from moving for better working conditions, which allows Pacific Coastal to remain with lower working conditions, salary & bonds
That’s all great! You seem to be ignoring the fact that they are paying this because they are all competing for the 1500 hour pilots, which there is not enough of.
THEY WOULD NOT BE PAYING THIS IF THEY DID NOT HAVE TOO!
You also seem to be ignoring that AC would rather have us park half the Jazz fleet than pay more!
The only thing that will change this mentality is, not having a choice, instead of trying to shame pilots for bonds and low pay, why don’t you try and change the system where we can and do put fresh commercial pilots in the flight decks of 705 aircraft, including the 737 max.
Lobby the US regulator, have them deny access to the airspace if a company hires low time(sub 1500 hr) pilots to operate into their airports.
These US regionals were the first to lower the profession into a minimum wage job where pilots, including Captains were sleep on crewroom couches because they couldn’t afford a Crashpad or to live at their base, you are completely ignoring the history and how we got here and how they ended up where they are.
Pilots will take the job offered to them, without another better offer, the investment they made into their future is not for you to decide.
In other words, put up or shut up! Create a petition and get politicians on board or sit back and whine about pilots signing bonds, your choice but I suspect most here are tired of your incessant complaining
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Janitroll
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by Janitroll »

cdnavater wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 am
These US regionals were the first to lower the profession into a minimum wage job where pilots, including Captains were sleep on crewroom couches because they couldn’t afford a Crashpad or to live at their base
As you mentioned, US pilots were previously paid under $20k. Now they’re paid $300k+
18 - 30k to $200k -300k – 1000 to 1500% increase in pay, wouldn’t thought possible at the time
The airlines have the ability to pay higher and improve working conditions from couches to paid hotels

It's up to the pilot group bargaining for it



cdnavater wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 am In other words, put up or shut up!
"put up and shut up" isn't the way for pilots to do CBA negotiations


cdnavater wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 am
Lobby the US regulator, have them deny access to the airspace if a company hires low time(sub 1500 hr) pilots to operate into their airports.
There are many FO flying safely at Jazz and other regionals with less than 1500 hours.

The FAA has exemptions for sub 1500 hour pilots.

Total flight time minimums:
1,500 hours
1,250 hours – with qualifying 2- or 4-year aviation university program with 30 aviation hours
1,000 hours – with qualifying 2- or 4-year aviation university program with 60 aviation hours
750 hours – military flight training graduates
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rudder
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by rudder »

Comparing the current AC CBA to a US regional is opportunistic and pointless. What US regional pilots are being paid is akin to what a person trapped in the desert would be willing to pay for a bottle of water.

AC pilot comparator should be US mainline pay rates (no exchange rate factor applied), pension, and WAWCON.

Contract 2000 plus inflation is a good start towards that objective.
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Janitroll
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by Janitroll »

rudder wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 12:33 pm Comparing the current AC CBA to a US regional is opportunistic and pointless. What US regional pilots are being paid is akin to what a person trapped in the desert would be willing to pay for a bottle of water.
Then working at a US regional could be a career move, instead of flying for mainline?
rudder wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 12:33 pm
AC pilot comparator should be US mainline pay rates (no exchange rate factor applied), pension, and WAWCON.

Southwest


Southwest pilots, reserves or line holders, are required to work 15 days a month, any additional days are up to the individual

Duty Rig - 0.74:1
Trip Rig - 1:3

Move up pay = if a pilot’s assignment is moved up 30 minutes or more the whole day is premium pay (150%)


Premium/double time/triple time paid on the higher of legs or daily rigs (DPM/DHR)

New Overrides:

Ground Time Override (GTO): After 150 minutes, 0.01 TFP per minute of ground time.
Late Return Override (LRO): On an original assignment, 1 TFP if two hours late or more.
Leg Change Override (LCO): If reassigned, for each leg changed, 50% override within the
original footprint of the pairing or 100% outside the footprint.
Reserve Release Override (RRO): All legs that block in after the end of the last RAP will
get 50% override.

https://aerocrewnews.com/compare/nmLZiEBwiZAR/

There is also enhanced financial protection for crew members who are unable to fly due to fatigue.

Southwest offers health plan coverage options that start from the very first day of employment.

Contract provides 5 cent raise to per diem every year with no end date.





Alaska

Training pay for new hires is 85 hours per month.

Reserve: Short Call: 2:30 Hrs Long Call: 14 Hrs

Scheduled or actual flight time, whichever is greater

Average Daily Guarantee: 5:15 hrs / Duty Period

Holiday pay of five hours (above guarantee) for flying or reserve duty that touches the following days: Independence Day, Halloween Day, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Eve Day, Christmas Day, New Year’s Eve Day, and New Year’s Day.


You can review the contract changes, payscale @ United & AA here

United

NEW - Pilot brought in for a Disciplinary Interview on a day off provided 3 hours pay

https://aerocrewnews.com/acn/Contracts/ ... t-v1-2.pdf

AA

National Business Class branded hotel per 7.A.7.d. (ex. Marriott, Hilton, Sheraton, Hyatt)

http://aerocrewnews.com/acn/Contracts/A ... ummary.pdf
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

I hope you put all this info in your survey.
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flying4dollars
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:38 pm I hope you put all this info in your survey.
The union is more than aware and the comparators have already been put in the negotiating committee's hands.
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Dry Guy
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by Dry Guy »

flying4dollars wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:49 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:38 pm I hope you put all this info in your survey.
The union is more than aware and the comparators have already been put in the negotiating committee's hands.
Yes but unfortunately this is American hours so we can't compare
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JungleRiot
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by JungleRiot »

What's the current probation period at AC?
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WhataYoke
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by WhataYoke »

JungleRiot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:30 am What's the current probation period at AC?
1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
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alkaseltzer
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by alkaseltzer »

WhataYoke wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:16 am
JungleRiot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:30 am What's the current probation period at AC?
1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
So at least 2 yrs. Some on the union never had this probationary release interview!

Quite the dog and pony show.
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cdnavater
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by cdnavater »

alkaseltzer wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:08 am
WhataYoke wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:16 am
JungleRiot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:30 am What's the current probation period at AC?
1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
So at least 2 yrs. Some on the union never had this probationary release interview!

Quite the dog and pony show.
Can’t be too many who haven’t experienced it, I know my buddy had to do it about 18 years ago. I’ve always thought this was pretty ridiculous, after the interview, when he was deemed successful they said “welcome to Air Canada”.
His inner thought was, umm I’ve been here over a year but ok!
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tango308
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by tango308 »

WhataYoke wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:16 am
JungleRiot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:30 am What's the current probation period at AC?
1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
Probation is on the MEC 2024 flight plan. I would imagine they'd like to standardize with other ALPA carriers, eg 1 year from DOH.
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flying4dollars
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

alkaseltzer wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:08 am
WhataYoke wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:16 am
JungleRiot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:30 am What's the current probation period at AC?
1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
So at least 2 yrs. Some on the union never had this probationary release interview!

Quite the dog and pony show.
No. It was 15 months for me and the probation release was not an interview at all. It was a very civilized chat with a manager who made sure I knew where to find resources and who to talk to if there's ever a problem. The other 90% of the convo was casual coffee shop talk. It was a total non event but I do think it's silly it's not based on DOH.
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bobcatdriver
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by bobcatdriver »

flying4dollars wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:01 pm
alkaseltzer wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:08 am
WhataYoke wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:16 am

1 year starting from when you're line checked. Don't forget you have to interview with your managers to get off it as well.
So at least 2 yrs. Some on the union never had this probationary release interview!

Quite the dog and pony show.
No. It was 15 months for me and the probation release was not an interview at all. It was a very civilized chat with a manager who made sure I knew where to find resources and who to talk to if there's ever a problem. The other 90% of the convo was casual coffee shop talk. It was a total non event but I do think it's silly it's not based on DOH.
Were you hired in 2018 or post-COVID? 3 yrs for some.
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flying4dollars
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

bobcatdriver wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:00 pm
flying4dollars wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:01 pm
alkaseltzer wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:08 am

So at least 2 yrs. Some on the union never had this probationary release interview!

Quite the dog and pony show.
No. It was 15 months for me and the probation release was not an interview at all. It was a very civilized chat with a manager who made sure I knew where to find resources and who to talk to if there's ever a problem. The other 90% of the convo was casual coffee shop talk. It was a total non event but I do think it's silly it's not based on DOH.
Were you hired in 2018 or post-COVID? 3 yrs for some.
Fair, no I wasn't, but that was a one off and generalizing the probation time at 2 years minimum is still not accurate. Plan for about 15-18 months on the higher end. In either case probation is really a non-event. You'd have to be that one guy who was irresponsible with his social media posts to get punted out of this place.
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itsgrosswhatinet
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

Isn't he back?
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flying4dollars
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:52 pm Isn't he back?
No. Where did you hear that?
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

flying4dollars wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:21 pm
itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:52 pm Isn't he back?
No. Where did you hear that?
Social media :lol:
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:14 pm
flying4dollars wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:21 pm
itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:52 pm Isn't he back?
No. Where did you hear that?
Social media :lol:
I literally just spat beer all over my screen. Thanks :x :lol:
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by Janitroll »

flying4dollars wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:49 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:38 pm I hope you put all this info in your survey.
The union is more than aware and the comparators have already been put in the negotiating committee's hands.

Don't rely on the union or they read this site

It takes many pilots notifying the MEC of what to settle for

If you want these conditions then email, submit or phone the MEC, or tell it to them at a unity event
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Re: ACA starting position

Post by flying4dollars »

Janitroll wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:47 am
flying4dollars wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:49 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:38 pm I hope you put all this info in your survey.
The union is more than aware and the comparators have already been put in the negotiating committee's hands.

Don't rely on the union or they read this site

It takes many pilots notifying the MEC of what to settle for

If you want these conditions then email, submit or phone the MEC, or tell it to them at a unity event
Yes....that is how I know they are aware :lol:
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