Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Nick678]

Does anyone know if application date to AC from Jazz is a factor in whether or not one is part of the 285 or is it all the first 285 to go to AC in 2023 full stop?

I believe they structured so the first 285 to go would be included. That seems flawed as someone who never applied in 2022 could apply in 2023 and be included but I don’t make rules.

In plain and simple a contract wasn’t honoured intentionally and damages occurred. Up to CIRB to verify the rest. I wouldn’t start throwing around seniority claims as that might make AC pilots switch unions again (joking) I would just wait and see how this goes.

[link821]

Yes very true, we dont need an ACPA 2.0. My great big idea was only paying us based on our yos at jazz. i.e 2 years at jazz, you go to year 3 on the AC payscale but bottom of the list for everything else. Its useless to dream up these ideas though, as someone said above we got f*cked over, gotta find away to accept it and move on.

[Nick678]

Yes very true, we dont need an ACPA 2.0. My great big idea was only paying us based on our yos at jazz. i.e 2 years at jazz, you go to year 3 on the AC payscale but bottom of the list for everything else. Its useless to dream up these ideas though, as someone said above we got f*cked over, gotta find away to accept it and move on.

Mr Kiaszceski is bitter they didn’t hire him. I wouldn’t loose sleep but I wouldn’t loose hope. ALPA wouldn’t take it this far if they didn’t think something will come from it. I think the best solution would come from all 4 parties hashing it out but it seems that’s not an option for some reason.

This chat is probably better suited under the Jazz tab as well.

[kiaszceski]

I love you too!

[jeremyh1]

I am sorry if you went to Jazz expecting a job at the mainline however, another consideration here is the fact that Jazz hires pilots with minimal experience. I was hired at AC in early 2023 with thousands of hours of experience including 737 left seat time. I get it, I am an outlier here, but I'd really like to know how flying AC passengers within the Express brand entitles anyone to a spot. My understanding is that the flow was "up to a certain percentage." I could very well be wrong as being OTS, I never had to consider this flow agreement. I'd imagine AC could argue that anyone who did not "flow" did not pass their interview/medical/psych eval. Good luck to those who are taking a stand but I'd imagine you're chasing a lost dog here.

Jeremy

[BTD]

I am sorry if you went to Jazz expecting a job at the mainline however, another consideration here is the fact that Jazz hires pilots with minimal experience. I was hired at AC in early 2023 with thousands of hours of experience including 737 left seat time. I get it, I am an outlier here, but I'd really like to know how flying AC passengers within the Express brand entitles anyone to a spot. My understanding is that the flow was "up to a certain percentage." I could very well be wrong as being OTS, I never had to consider this flow agreement. I'd imagine AC could argue that anyone who did not "flow" did not pass their interview/medical/psych eval. Good luck to those who are taking a stand but I'd imagine you're chasing a lost dog here.

Jeremy

I’ve been at AC for 13 years, so not a jazz pilot. From your post it doesn’t seem that you are clear on the flow issue being discussed.

[Fidget]

You know what wasn’t honoured either? Jazz’s agreement with AC to have a certain number of pilots. Their hiring and recruiting has been a bust and they have failed in keeping their roster numbers up. AC got ticked off and looked for another regional. Jazz pilot numbers are abysmal and AC has had to adjust not just their own mainline flying but their pilot projections. F’ing jazz. Seems to be the common sentiment for years now and continues to be.

[cdnavater]

You know what wasn’t honoured either? Jazz’s agreement with AC to have a certain number of pilots. Their hiring and recruiting has been a bust and they have failed in keeping their roster numbers up. AC got ticked off and looked for another regional. Jazz pilot numbers are abysmal and AC has had to adjust not just their own mainline flying but their pilot projections. F’ing jazz. Seems to be the common sentiment for years now and continues to be.

So, you think AC didn’t play a part, in fact AC was the sole driver behind our recruitment issues at Jazz.
It’s nice and convenient to blame Jazz for not honouring their CPA but reality is the wages were driven down by AC creating a super competitive environment for the work. Companies like Sky Regional, seed money provided by AC and essentially services provided by AC to take the flying from Jazz who were the highest paid regional pilots in North America and perhaps the world. Georgian, who we’re even worse than SR, who couldn’t afford to fix the aircraft they were flying based on what AC was paying them were about to take delivery of their first five CRJ 900s before they were axed.
Make no mistake, AC is 100% behind our recruitment issues, even to the degree where Jazz management came to an agreement with our union to pay more and AC quashed it, came back with a lesser increase to the tune of 30-50% depending on where you were on the list, wonder what it was before the modified OUR agreement.
Your post reeks of a low level management shrill who bought the propaganda hook line and sinker

[cdnavater]

I am sorry if you went to Jazz expecting a job at the mainline however, another consideration here is the fact that Jazz hires pilots with minimal experience. I was hired at AC in early 2023 with thousands of hours of experience including 737 left seat time. I get it, I am an outlier here, but I'd really like to know how flying AC passengers within the Express brand entitles anyone to a spot. My understanding is that the flow was "up to a certain percentage." I could very well be wrong as being OTS, I never had to consider this flow agreement. I'd imagine AC could argue that anyone who did not "flow" did not pass their interview/medical/psych eval. Good luck to those who are taking a stand but I'd imagine you're chasing a lost dog here.

Jeremy

BTD is correct, you don’t know how it works.
It was a MINIMUM of 60% of the hiring and 90% acceptance of those who applied once they met the minimum qualifications.

[Inverted2]

You know what wasn’t honoured either? Jazz’s agreement with AC to have a certain number of pilots. Their hiring and recruiting has been a bust and they have failed in keeping their roster numbers up. AC got ticked off and looked for another regional. Jazz pilot numbers are abysmal and AC has had to adjust not just their own mainline flying but their pilot projections. F’ing jazz. Seems to be the common sentiment for years now and continues to be.

Jazz hiring and retention problems are 100% of Air Canadas fault. They didn’t follow the 60% flow through. Meddled in the negotiations to keep pay at Jazz below industry standard. Added another CPA carrier even though Jazz was supposed to be the sole CPA carrier, further lowering morale and reducing Jazz flying which further still lowers morale and makes Jazz look like an undesirable place to work which it is at the moment. Pilots went elsewhere for better pay and schedules. Air Canada went out of their way to make sure Jazz can’t get enough qualified pilots.

[billybgone]

You know what wasn’t honoured either? Jazz’s agreement with AC to have a certain number of pilots. Their hiring and recruiting has been a bust and they have failed in keeping their roster numbers up. AC got ticked off and looked for another regional. Jazz pilot numbers are abysmal and AC has had to adjust not just their own mainline flying but their pilot projections. F’ing jazz. Seems to be the common sentiment for years now and continues to be.

Jazz hiring and retention problems are 100% of Air Canadas fault. They didn’t follow the 60% flow through. Meddled in the negotiations to keep pay at Jazz below industry standard. Added another CPA carrier even though Jazz was supposed to be the sole CPA carrier, further lowering morale and reducing Jazz flying which further still lowers morale and makes Jazz look like an undesirable place to work which it is at the moment. Pilots went elsewhere for better pay and schedules. Air Canada went out of their way to make sure Jazz can’t get enough qualified pilots.

It took AC management over 9 months of resisting as they enjoyed their cheap labour before finally letting up after severe losses. Their pay increases didn't even match Porter's Q400 or Encore's temporary pay boost.

Meanwhile Jazz crews were getting shifted with flow and OTS were 2-3 years ahead of Jazz (eg at one point PIT had 2018 Jazz guys while Encore/Porter was 2021 hired folks) all while the OTS competition was paying up to 50% more in wages.

AC's inability to adapt to the economic realities was what happened. Jazz ALPA and Jazz management tried their best but AC management makes the ultimate decisions. Now Jazz has 175 fins flying one Chicago turn a day and pilot dropping from 1700 at peak to the 950 pilots we see today.

[Jfthepilot]

.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I agree with inverted. Cdnavater trashes SR and Georgian but doesn’t mention at all how much of a violation the PAL agreement is with regards to the CPA. The fact of the matter is: AC will continue to do what it does. There is no stopping the red machine.

Good luck to all. Im happy I bailed out.

[cdnavater]

I agree with inverted. Cdnavater trashes SR and Georgian but doesn’t mention at all how much of a violation the PAL agreement is with regards to the CPA. The fact of the matter is: AC will continue to do what it does. There is no stopping the red machine.

Good luck to all. Im happy I bailed out.

What do you want me to say that hasn’t been said, I wasn’t trashing SR or GGN necessarily, more pointing out how we got to where we are.
PAL absolutely should not be flying AC passengers right now, not one of us would have been shocked had they ramped them up leading into 2025, when they were allowed to but to use a situation of their own creation as an excuse to do what they did, well, deplorable is what it is.
I’m hoping the CIRB is able to sanction AC or remedy us to the wage that was agreed to instead of what AC “was willing to pay”

[goingnowherefast]

I hope the Jazz pilots get every penny they deserve from this. I hope it's very expensive for AC management. Expensive enough that they never violate another agreement again.

With the way AC has behaved post COVID, I have zero intention of working in their system. That be mainline, Jazz, PAL or whoever else they get through a CPA. AC management does not care about employees, so I don't want to be one for them.

AC management also doesn't care about their passengers, so I do my best to avoid being an AC passenger as well. I fly a lot, so sometimes it is unavoidable.

I voted with my feet as both a professional pilot and a customer.

[Ash Ketchum]

This should be extended to Jazz pilots that joined AC in 2022 as well. Plenty of Jazz pilots interviewed at AC in late 2019/early 2020 and were in the hiring pool when COVID hit. Instead of AC re-interviewing and hiring these pilots first when hiring resumed in the spring of 2022, Jazz held onto many of them for an extra 6+ months causing them to lose hundreds of seniority numbers at AC.

[alkaseltzer]

This should be extended to Jazz pilots that joined AC in 2022 as well. Plenty of Jazz pilots interviewed at AC in late 2019/early 2020 and were in the hiring pool when COVID hit. Instead of AC re-interviewing and hiring these pilots first when hiring resumed in the spring of 2022, Jazz held onto many of them for an extra 6+ months causing them to lose hundreds of seniority numbers at AC.

Is this a written employment guarantee? Are there penalties associated with not hiring the 90% of the 60% within a prescribed time frame? Has Jazz co-signed this liability?

Does the grievance hold water?

The moment these individuals leave Jazz, they’re represented by Air Canada ALPA not Jazz ALPA. Or are they?

Hoping a good outcome for these affected pilots.

[Nick678]

This should be extended to Jazz pilots that joined AC in 2022 as well. Plenty of Jazz pilots interviewed at AC in late 2019/early 2020 and were in the hiring pool when COVID hit. Instead of AC re-interviewing and hiring these pilots first when hiring resumed in the spring of 2022, Jazz held onto many of them for an extra 6+ months causing them to lose hundreds of seniority numbers at AC.

Is this a written employment guarantee? Are there penalties associated with not hiring the 90% of the 60% within a prescribed time frame? Has Jazz co-signed this liability?

Does the grievance hold water?

The moment these individuals leave Jazz, they’re represented by Air Canada ALPA not Jazz ALPA. Or are they?

Hoping a good outcome for these affected pilots.

Yes. No. Yes.

Yes.

Yes and no

Thank you!

[ALPAisAwesome]

Has the CIRB scheduled a time and place for the next hearing?

[truedude]

Has the CIRB scheduled a time and place for the next hearing?

Case Managment Conference scheduled for mid April between the parties.

[Nick678]

[quote=ALPAisAwesome post_id=<a href="tel:1300988">1300988</a> time=<a href="tel:1710087657">1710087657</a> user_id=97664]
Has the CIRB scheduled a time and place for the next hearing?

Case Managment Conference scheduled for mid April between the parties.
[/quote]

Are we allowed to tune in? I thought these processes were supposed to be somewhat transparent.

[Jfthepilot]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

[Nick678]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

If you were at wj and an encore pilot on the one list popped in ahead you would probably be fine with it, you knew the agreement. But if this happens at AC all hell with break lose.

I like your idea except dovetail the pilots throughout 2022 @ 25 a month so you don’t have 295 with the same DOH.

I realize this is a pipe dream.

[Jfthepilot]

I like your idea except dovetail the pilots throughout 2022 @ 25 a month so you don’t have 295 with the same DOH.

I realize this is a pipe dream.

There is no requirements for hiring to be spread thru the year in the flow agreement, only 60% at the end of the year. No arbitrators will force a spread thru the year. The max they will have is a December 31st seniority.

[vanislepilot]

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

There is only one way this grievance can be resolved, in order of importance.

1. Restitution of seniority for the 295 applicants that were qualified in 2022. Such restitution should be dated as of December 31st 2022 since there is no provisions to spread the 60% across the year, in order of Jazz seniority (as per the CA clause that interviews should be done in such order).

2. Compensate the junior members that lost access to better seniority and opportunities regarding bases and positions.

3. Larger compensation for the entire membership due to loss of leverage and the violation of an article of their collective agreement. (Much difficult to obtain since many arbitrators ruled against such thing as lost of leverage).


There is not a single pilot hired OTS in 2023 and beyond that wasn’t aware of the flow issue.

With such resolution, the flow requirements will be met. OTS pilots affected will have their seniority on the master list affected by a few tens of positions, since most of the 295 are already on location. The impact on specific base and type is even less.

Yeah… No…

Absolutely not

Do I think jazz guys should get some compensation for missing their flow? Yes.

Do I think that compensation should be in the form of seniority? Absolutely freaking NOT.

What entitlement do you have to someone elses seniority? People have uprooted their lives, left high paying positions to come to Air Canada, and a lot have thousands of hours valuable experience. You want to bypass them in seniority all due to the maple leaf plastered on your plane? I think not.

This is not encore wj mentality at all. It was understood from the beginning that an encore pilot will carry their seniority. They also have had major flow issues. But this is not a case for Jazz AC. Your seniority does not carry with you nor should it, 2 completely different companies.

Yes there was an agreement. Yes it was broken because it was either send all of jazz to AC and destroy jazz with the lack of pilots, ruining service to many regional airports that you signed up to fly to, or reduce flow.

At the end of the day, you took a risk going to jazz just like others took a risk going to other airlines. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.