Any Update On The New Contract?

[the_new_guy]

hey I've got an idea

why don't we wait until we know even the slightest detail about it before writing multiple paragraph posts about how shitty it is

Awesome idea. See you here in a few days (or weeks?).

ok start typing up those paragraphs because this is shitty

Yeah. I mean if we now both agree this is shitty, no need for paragraphs

Hopefully this is voted down A-fucking-SAP

[MAX8 Driver]

Don't hold your breath. It was negotiated by the same negotiation team that brought us this current garbage contract. More concessions coming in order to foster increased retention and recruitment. .

Vote it down. "You deserve better."

Clearly the company still has no respect for the pilot group.

*False*

The current MEC was negotiating this LOU. And its because of the pilot shortage globally that the Company needs to likely adjust a few contract language in order to better utilize the pilots. ( we won't work more, just more efficiently )

Weird. Some signatures look awfully familiar . If you think the MEC in it's entirety was at the table, you are very mistaken. If you think ex management wasn't negotiating on behalf of the pilot group you are also very sadly mistaken. Wake up. Vote no.

[PeanutGallery]

Bad deal.

MMG takes a dive to 75, while the OT threshold holds steady at 88 and goes up with each open flight picked up. The monthly credit cap remains at 92, except for those four months where it's a free for all. Their plan is obvious: keep the crews lean, schedule close to 75 during the lulls, then slam everyone into overdrive during the peaks instead of staffing sensibly. Get ready for CARs maximum all summer.

Open time pays straight time on GDOs. Some pilots might hold out for double time, while others will grab the straight pay and run. Brace for some heated debates among colleagues on the ethics of working for straight time when somebody else was hoping to take that flight at double time.

With no credit protection, expect a whole mess of other issues to crop up. Working for straight time on a GDO and then losing credit because your flight was delayed so they pulled you off of your next duty, for example. Sounds fair.

But fear not, we get to vote at least. If the majority of us vote no we can wait for something better. I'd rather leave things status quo than lose Christmasses with my family. For me, the choice is easy. Let's hope the majority sees it the same way.

[flyinhigh]

So yes that's the pay being offered but at 75 mmg. That's the end of the good news, unfortunately as with all things Flair, they want us to take concessions to get it. I'll wait and see how the town hall goes before deciding how to vote.

First marginally negative comment about Flair from Co-joe, wowza.

In all seriousness this is a big ole pilot of cow dung after you read the LOU.

Pros
-Pay increase

Cons
-ZERO OT pay for picking up open flying on a GDO (I says pardon, wtf).
-Reduction to 75 hr MMG. (Hourly rate makes up for it, but imagine if you kept the 85 hr, with the new rates).
-No OT till 92 hours (bahahah)
-Still no trip rig

From the outside, its a big ole NO from this guy, but based on the contract signed previously anything is better than what you have.

Lots of companies have raised pay mid-contract. What Porter did and what Flair is doing isn't special. Flair is surprising
because of their very public financial issues. Porter is good at PR. Both are welcome contrast to how WJ and AC (plus their regionals) are handling labour relations, the pilot shortage and pay.

Exactly, LOU's, MOU's, LOA's are ALL mechanisms used to amend a contract mid term. Just because the company (Porter) tells you that a Union will affect the ability to change quick doesn't mean that at all. In fact it says alot when people take Alexander or the Deluce's at face value.

Reality is, a Union is better because, in the case of Flair above, YOU get to vote. What do we get at Porter? We get told what we are getting and zero communications from our so called FOAG committee. When we do get communications from the committee, it is usually a look how hard we are working.

Last note, company is doing all they can to recruit. ahaha

Employer Notes APR 2024 - Significant pay increase for First Officers and Captains has been negotiated between the Flair ALPA Group and the airline. The agreement is currently being voted on by Flair Pilots.

https://pilotcareercenter.com/Air-Carri ... r-Airlines

[rudder]

So Flair finally offers as much to fly a 189 seat 737 as a 130 seat E2 in hopes that it will stem the exodus.

In return, lower MMG and disincentivizing O/T. And no rigs.

Enjoy it while it lasts. The first ones off the Titanic survived. The last ones all drowned.

[Me262]

Here are the payscales

Pretty optimistic they are expecting to make it to jan 1st...

You mean may 1st?...

Exactly. Everyone is debating the LOU meanwhile this company is on its dead bed. Maybe that's why AC and WJ are dragging on with their negotiations. In a few weeks/months, people can't point fingers that a ULCC pays 1.5x more than national flagships when said ULCC no longer exists.

[a2btrail]

So Flair finally offers as much to fly a 189 seat 737 as a 130 seat E2 in hopes that it will stem the exodus.

In return, lower MMG and disincentivizing O/T. And no rigs.

Enjoy it while it lasts. The first ones off the Titanic survived. The last ones all drowned.

LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Rudder you got too many gems like this statement.

[Canadaflyer46]

Serious question, why would anyone vote it down? It's substantialy more money. Everyone knows that Flair will be gone in 6 months, might as well make a bit extra while you're on your way out the door surely?

[cdnavater]

Serious question, why would anyone vote it down? It's substantialy more money. Everyone knows that Flair will be gone in 6 months, might as well make a bit extra while you're on your way out the door surely?

While I agree in principle and said the same thing about Jazz when we had an increase being presented, it had very minor and non permanent concessions, for ours it was almost all positive.
However, this contract amendment has what seems like significant concessions, remember the first Flair contract and how tblaylx used the 85 MMG as a raise, here they are reducing the MMG to 75 and straight time OT to 92. They know most pilots will work more if they are only blocked to 75, the result, reserve pilots will make less. It also doesn’t sound like they fixed the other deficiencies to the first contract, remains to be seen I suppose.
It’s really funny though, Flair apparently has a recruiting problem and instead of fixing problems, they up the pay but make other areas worse, if it were me, I would vote no and send a message that no concessions are the only way forward.

[oakmoss1889]

Id like to point out that the captains were pretty quiet when they voted in the last contract giving themselves significant raises while taking concessions. Meanwhile FOs got a 3% raise and had to take the same concessions. Have things changed because it directly effects captains now? Or did they realize their mistake by voting in the last contract?

[FlyingSaddles]

This is a cruel joke.

With attrition through the roof, they have offered this contract which is worse in almost every way to what WestJet signed a year ago. And, by the way, WestJet will soon be beaten by Air Canada, which will make this comparison look even worse.

A first year captain will make $30,380 a year less than what WestJet pays! That’s a mortgage payment right there. A fourth year FA will make $14,925 a year less. Raising wages and cutting MMG is a bit too clever. You can’t build a business model on the backs of underpaid pilots.

The only two groups who will make more are first and second year FOs, who will make $3,802 and $5,590 more. That is self serving because it helps the company with recruiting. The company has no interest in helping the pilots on the property.

By the way, other airlines have real RIGs. And they don’t wait until 92 hours to pay OT. The reserve system is not predatory. This is a new low even for this management team and MEC.

Anyone can check my math below.

[Chaxterium]

What is trip rig?

[oakmoss1889]

And they don’t wait until 92 hours to pay OT.

Where are people getting that OT is being increased to 92 hours? Section 21.5 remains unchanged and says OT is 88 hours. The examples in the LOU use 88 hours as OT too.

[rudder]

What is trip rig?

Minimum daily credit.

Flight time/duty time ratio (daily).

Flight time/trip time ratio (for entire pairing).

[co-joe]

This is a cruel joke.
...

Feel free to add in Flair's massive 3% pension match up to year 5, 4% up to year 10. It won't change the colour of any of your pretty columns, but apples to apples and all since you included WS's pension rsp thing...

[co-joe]

What is trip rig?

https://www.alpa.org/ala/-/media/ALA/fi ... .pdf?la=en

The ALPA glossary has a lot of terms that are thrown around in avcan-space on a daily basis that I didn't know until recently. It's a great reference for some of the discussions here with upcoming negotiations at Encore, AC, and F8 getting pretty intense. A trip rig is something Flair needs badly. Especially with all the western pilots being sent to YYZ to cover reserve shifts.

Rig: A pay rule that compensates pilots for unproductive pairings (i.e.,
pairings with a high ratio of unpaid nonflying or layover time to
paid block hours). A trip rig is pay credit based on time away from
base; a duty rig is pay credit based on hours on duty. A typical trip
rig might be 1:3.5 (i.e., for every 3.5 hours away from base, the pilot
will receive a minimum of 1 hour of pay credit); a duty rig might
be 1:1.5 (i.e., for every 1.5 hours on duty, the pilot will receive 1
hour of pay credit).

[DanWEC]

Jesus, you guys should go get checked out immediately, you might have caught a case of ACPA.

[CaptDukeNukem]

This is a cruel joke.
...

Feel free to add in Flair's massive 3% pension match up to year 5, 4% up to year 10. It won't change the colour of any of your pretty columns, but apples to apples and all since you included WS's pension rsp thing...

I bet Porter’s resume stack got larger today

[Dronepiper]

You should include the lump sum payment for westjet pilots too.

This is a guaranteed payout twice a month. It used to be called options.

Works out to $7400/year for FO's and $10,300/year for Captains.

[M.Caribou]

Jesus, you guys should go get checked out immediately, you might have caught a case of ACPA.

Everyone is leaving and you take concessions for a small credit hour increase? Your union is forgetting who has the upper hand! What a joke.

[PeanutGallery]

HOLD THE LINE.

I will be handing in my resignation if this passes. I am not willing to be worked like a dog for a third of the year.

[lament]

HOLD THE LINE.

I will be handing in my resignation if this passes. I am not willing to be worked like a dog for a third of the year.

Even worse, it passing would signal a pilot group that is willing to do that and will continue to.

[CaptDukeNukem]

HOLD THE LINE.

I will be handing in my resignation if this passes. I am not willing to be worked like a dog for a third of the year.

What line? Flair has never had any line. Except the one to their customer service desks.

[co-joe]

This is a cruel joke.
...

Feel free to add in Flair's massive 3% pension match up to year 5, 4% up to year 10. It won't change the colour of any of your pretty columns, but apples to apples and all since you included WS's pension rsp thing...

I bet Porter’s resume stack got larger today

I bet if it passes, Porter will have a pipeline of high time jet pilots to chose from.

[khedrei]

What am I missing here?

FOs currently make 74k or whatever and have to work 85 block hours per month.

Captains currently make 150k. Same 85 hrs.

The new proposal has FOs at 90k and captains at 180k both working 10 less block hours per month.

I'm not talking about OT or and if there are other concessions that's a separate issue. I cant see the printout on that.

Seriously, what's the problem with the increased payscales. More money less work...?

The last contract was sold as a raise when you had to work more to get it which made it not so much a raise. This one has them working less. What am I missing?