RippleRock wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 7:45 pm
FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........
Which ones? Almost all of Encore's destinations are also served by mainline at other times of the day, and with the exception of one, all of the rest are served by other carriers. Do you really think management is willing to spend whatever is necessary to maintain service to Brandon? I absolutely support the Encore pilots for voting down this TA, and I think it's fantastic that they might get more out of the company, but I think a lot of people are overestimating how much they're worth to WestJet. There are, what, fifteen tails in service at any one time? That's equal to 6.5 737-800s in terms of seating capacity, which can be sorted out pretty easily with some shuffling of the schedule. Hell, WestJet just picked up four of Lynx's aircraft just this week.
All of the numbers that have been thrown around about how much profit share was distributed or how much the Alexis makes are irrelevant, because the issue isn't that the company literally doesn't have another dollar to spend, it's whether keeping Encore going is a good value proposition. Encore costs a certain amount to keep in operation; it also generates a certain amount of revenue on its own flights, plus it provides connecting passengers who continue on jet flights. If the costs outweigh the benefits, then there's no reason to keep it going. It's a complex calculation that requires factoring in how much revenue would be lost by dropping routes or reducing frequencies, including how many connecting pax would be lost, but I bet they're already operating on a razor's edge. There are too few ASMs to make much of an impact on the company's overall network, especially if the majority of people flying out of YXJ and YQT aren't getting on a 787 to go overseas, and even moreso if those passengers aren't buying premium or business-class tickets. An airline needs mechanics to keep operating, but it doesn't need Dash-8s, and if the cost of operating them is greater than the return they generate, then I have no doubt that this cut-throat management team will slash and burn. They know exactly how much they're willing to spend to keep the planes flying, and their offers likely reflect that, so while it's admirable to push for 10% WSP it would be really easy to go too far with the demands.
I know I'm going to be called defeatist and a management shill, and I have no skin in the game, so it's not my fight, I just think there needs to be a counterpoint to all of these people claiming that the Encore pilots have all the power in this relationship. Someone needs to play devil's advocate and point out that Encore is an afterthought to the company that they'll keep running as long as it doesn't cost them anything, and not one second longer. I just want to be on the record in a few months once this has all played out, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong; I'll come back here and metaphorically eat my hat if that's the case.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
It would be foolish to assume that this would only happen under Alexis / Onex ownership.
I can guarantee that the same would happen under Beddoe and Co in the first 10 years if the entire operation was placed in a position of being un-economic in an already razor-thin margin business.
The pennies add up into dollars.
Pigs get fed well, hogs get slaughtered.
Lmao...Reality Chex
I thought Swoop was needed to save WJ?
Or ALPA was going to destroy WJ?
And WJ was going to shut the doors because of a new contract
Shills coming out of the woodwork is a solid sign that this deal is garbage
dontcallmeshirley wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 8:34 am
Why do people think that this TA was voted down because of money?
Sure, the monetary gains were positive for some and negative for others, but there were several shortcomings that have nothing to do with compensation. For one, career progression, or lack thereof.
Not to be a arse, but for counter argument. Encore by definition is a legally separate entity by law. Encore negotiators cannot bargain with WJ or WJALPA (saw the result of that already in round 1 cba).
So what kind of progression can the negotiators guarantee outside of an upgrade?
WJ set the company up that way, on purpose. If they sell tomorrow there is zero repercussions to them.
Just saw the latest note from PASCO and how the CPA is done October this year.
You think management making these kinds of moves is by accident? They wanted Encore pilots to take this garbage deal right before they canceled the CPA with PASCO. They wanted to lock you guys into a garbage contract then add to your work load to fill some of the PASCO holes.
I’d say Encore pilots have A LOT of leverage now!
Anyone who wanted to vote No but got scared into a yes, take note! You can literally see how you got played by the company.
Pilots are slowly waking up in this country! Keep the momentum going!
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 1:19 pmSo what kind of progression can the negotiators guarantee outside of an upgrade?
I've been thinking about this for a while. WJ can't and won't flow pilots they don't have jobs for. Therefore they can't promise any sort of guaranteed flow rates or timelines. What's a suitable alternative though?
If the expectation is to flow to WJ in x years, or x positions per month, what happens when WJ can't accept that many? Is there a suitable alternative? I'm sure WJ ALPA won't open up their seniority list, that debate already happened. Jump to the top of the pay scale has been suggested. Copy some perks from the WJ CBA available to flow-delayed pilots?
What would make Encore more sustainable as a long term job, and less viewed as a WJ stepping stone?
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 1:19 pmSo what kind of progression can the negotiators guarantee outside of an upgrade?
I've been thinking about this for a while. WJ can't and won't flow pilots they don't have jobs for. Therefore they can't promise any sort of guaranteed flow rates or timelines. What's a suitable alternative though?
If the expectation is to flow to WJ in x years, or x positions per month, what happens when WJ can't accept that many? Is there a suitable alternative? I'm sure WJ ALPA won't open up their seniority list, that debate already happened. Jump to the top of the pay scale has been suggested. Copy some perks from the WJ CBA available to flow-delayed pilots?
What would make Encore more sustainable as a long term job, and less viewed as a WJ stepping stone?
Agreements such as at least XY% hires will come from Encore, or annually we will only hire off the street if we hire at least XXX encore pilots annually. Those things are easily defined, but require WestJet cooperation of course. They protect both parties in case the hiring stops. Shouldn't be too hard to do, if both sides are willing.
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Transition9er2 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 1:43 pm
Just saw the latest note from PASCO and how the CPA is done October this year.
You think management making these kinds of moves is by accident? They wanted Encore pilots to take this garbage deal right before they canceled the CPA with PASCO. They wanted to lock you guys into a garbage contract then add to your work load to fill some of the PASCO holes.
I’d say Encore pilots have A LOT of leverage now!
Anyone who wanted to vote No but got scared into a yes, take note! You can literally see how you got played by the company.
Pilots are slowly waking up in this country! Keep the momentum going!
RippleRock wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 7:45 pm
47% Yes is not a resounding No. It's barely a no.
A few small tweeks and its likely a go.
100% Win for Management. It's their wildest dream to get 51%. So close.
FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........
Next......
FWIW, 51% is no dream for management. Happy pilots are productive and generally save costs. Unhappy pilots can cost company $$$ and a lot of it….
Diederik's email to the company makes more sense now. He is frustrated that his plan is falling apart. I'm sure that the executives are feeling the pressure right now, and that's good in my books.
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 1:19 pm
So what kind of progression can the negotiators guarantee outside of an upgrade?
Operational merger was proposed to the company. It's not the most profitable move, but it's far better than having 30 of your 47 Q400s sitting idle on the apron because of a lack of pilots.
When did Encore start negotiating? I could see a situation where this would have met a survey from earlier in the process and the dynamics/ market changed by the end.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:15 am
When did Encore start negotiating? I could see a situation where this would have met a survey from earlier in the process and the dynamics/ market changed by the end.
The survey results won’t be disclosed until after it is ratified, but I can guarantee that number 1 or 2 would have been career progression. This TA did absolutely nothing for that. The NC should never have presented this offer. If they were not making any headway on those issues then give strike notice. The only time you can get anything approaching a reasonable offer from management here is when the timer has been started.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:15 am
When did Encore start negotiating? I could see a situation where this would have met a survey from earlier in the process and the dynamics/ market changed by the end.
The survey results won’t be disclosed until after it is ratified, but I can guarantee that number 1 or 2 would have been career progression. This TA did absolutely nothing for that. The NC should never have presented this offer. If they were not making any headway on those issues then give strike notice. The only time you can get anything approaching a reasonable offer from management here is when the timer has been started.
That lines up pretty well with what most people figured I would think. Increasing hourly but decreasing wsp was most likely “neutral cost” which is not what anyone wants to be negotiating. So either wsp has to go back up or hourly needs to be “best in class” not “matches the other guy”. The real trick (and I have no answer or skin in the game) is you guys figuring out what is acceptable for career progression. How much flow and if other wawcon can offset it if its just not on the table. Years of service for upgrade. Trip rigs. Duty rules. Days worked etc. would lack of flow but “best regional to work for” hack it or no flow = no point.
Funny, because the WSP was last on the list, they took that to mean reducing it was ok, yikes.
I’m sure when people filled out the survey, it was in order of preference what needs improvement, not what can we get rid of to improve other areas.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:03 pm
Funny, because the WSP was last on the list, they took that to mean reducing it was ok, yikes.
I’m sure when people filled out the survey, it was in order of preference what needs improvement, not what can we get rid of to improve other areas.
Exactly. “Zero sum” negotiations are a thing of the past. New contracts mean new money. Not shuffling the deck
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:03 pm
Funny, because the WSP was last on the list, they took that to mean reducing it was ok, yikes.
I’m sure when people filled out the survey, it was in order of preference what needs improvement, not what can we get rid of to improve other areas.
Exactly. “Zero sum” negotiations are a thing of the past. New contracts mean new money. Not shuffling the deck
There's new money, just not that much.
No one was expecting WSP cuts to just get par with Porter.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:15 am
When did Encore start negotiating? I could see a situation where this would have met a survey from earlier in the process and the dynamics/ market changed by the end.
This is exactly it, there is alot a play here. They began negotiating on a mandate and secured numerous provisions over time. If the MEC went back to the table and said "hey, you know that agreement on these provisions, yeah they are up for discussion again." The CLB, would look at that and could consider that bargaining in bad faith and say no strike until you bargain in faith.
Bringing this to a vote and having the democratic process unfold, shows the company it is not good enough so we need to open up the agreements, without giving the company leverage in front of the board.
It is easy to criticize the process, but behind the door there is so much more to it to it that pilots just do not see.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:15 am
When did Encore start negotiating? I could see a situation where this would have met a survey from earlier in the process and the dynamics/ market changed by the end.
This is exactly it, there is alot a play here. They began negotiating on a mandate and secured numerous provisions over time. If the MEC went back to the table and said "hey, you know that agreement on these provisions, yeah they are up for discussion again." The CLB, would look at that and could consider that bargaining in bad faith and say no strike until you bargain in faith.
Bringing this to a vote and having the democratic process unfold, shows the company it is not good enough so we need to open up the agreements, without giving the company leverage in front of the board.
It is easy to criticize the process, but behind the door there is so much more to it to it that pilots just do not see.
Did the Encore MEC continuously poll during negotiations?
The same happened at United and American. Membership expectations changed over time leading to an AIP that wouldn’t pass.
The failure to continuously poll through out the bargaining process, leading to a disconnect was identified as the issue.
There are risks as well if you later end up in arbitration after a failed AIP. Arbitrators usually start where you left off and don’t move much. Not saying that will happen. Only that it is now a risk.
Stay close to the membership. It’s the only way this works.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:03 pm
Funny, because the WSP was last on the list, they took that to mean reducing it was ok, yikes.
I’m sure when people filled out the survey, it was in order of preference what needs improvement, not what can we get rid of to improve other areas.
I'm not arguing in favour of or against what was done in the TA. However, just want to highlight one of the challenges with the WSP at Encore which is that a shocking number of pilots do NOT contribute to the WSP at all and another large number do not put in the full amount. When we were in front of Kaplan after the Onex purchase he made it very clear that because so many Encore pilots DIDN'T use the WSP, that's something that he would consider when determining what the future program should look like.
So, for negotiating purposes and value of a certain item, increased pay is something that every pilot will benefit from as opposed to WSP, which was, again, shockingly, not used as much as one would think. Now, 53% of Encore pilots did not feel that the TA as a whole was enough and I respect that completely. But the reality is that for many pilots they weren't having WSP reduced because they weren't actually using the WSP.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:03 pm
Funny, because the WSP was last on the list, they took that to mean reducing it was ok, yikes.
I’m sure when people filled out the survey, it was in order of preference what needs improvement, not what can we get rid of to improve other areas.
I'm not arguing in favour of or against what was done in the TA. However, just want to highlight one of the challenges with the WSP at Encore which is that a shocking number of pilots do NOT contribute to the WSP at all and another large number do not put in the full amount. When we were in front of Kaplan after the Onex purchase he made it very clear that because so many Encore pilots DIDN'T use the WSP, that's something that he would consider when determining what the future program should look like.
So, for negotiating purposes and value of a certain item, increased pay is something that every pilot will benefit from as opposed to WSP, which was, again, shockingly, not used as much as one would think. Now, 53% of Encore pilots did not feel that the TA as a whole was enough and I respect that completely. But the reality is that for many pilots they weren't having WSP reduced because they weren't actually using the WSP.
Devil’s advocate here, many Encore pilots didn’t contribute because the pay was so abysmal they couldn’t afford to.
I can’t imagine anyone filling out the survey was thinking it would get worse, they were probably thinking, if we get a big enough raise I’ll be able to contribute to the wsp.
The flow needs to be guaranteed with bypass pay. If mainline "doesn't need" pilots then you automatically go to WS FO pay and continue to accrue WS pay seniority on the WS pay scale. Then when you do flow ahead of any OTS hires, you carry that pay seniority with you.
goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 12:55 pm
Except WJA FO pays less than WEN Captain. Nobody wants to work for less.
I also seriously doubt WJA ALPA wants to open up their seniority list. This discussion already happened a few years ago.
Maybe something could be worked out to start acquiring YOS, but again, WJA ALPA would be involved.
Especially with the sunwing merger happening, they won’t be adding encore to the seniority list discussion. There’s zero chance of this and people need to make their own decisions based on this.
