“Pilots are leaving” — ALPA

[Bede]

I did my CN train conductor application today. It's a 7 week paid course with accommodations and meals paid for.

Ask to see the CA. According to my buddy who was an engineer, when you start you're on reserve literally 24/7 until you have seniority for a line. Your time not called is your time off. Your vacation is yours- that it.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

That sounds familiar

[CaptDukeNukem]

I did my CN train conductor application today. It's a 7 week paid course with accommodations and meals paid for.

Enjoy lifting 80 lbs pins while laying flat underneath rail cars in the dead of winter. Seeeeeeee yaaaaaaahhhh!

[JustaCanadian]

So many threats to strike across Canada, and last minute deals are made... And we haven't seen any deal even cover the cost of living. That has increased

CBSA, 15 percent over a few years
TTC, 4 percent a year.
Etc etc.

Inflation crushing Canadians and the bargaining is weak. Biggest wealth transfer and victory lap for Corporations and the elite.

The only way to get ahead is likely to leave. No one out there is getting any world class contract. Not even getting a adequate cost of living adjustment. Anyone here think a 4 percent raise annually over the next 4 years keeps up from the last 5 we have been through?

The trend doesn't look good Anyways.BOC is also cheering a win that wage growth is slowing and helping with inflation now. So maybe they can give another rate cut in the future.

[ShillBill]

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.

Of course they do - as should we. The difference is that they've been successful whereas we have not.

Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

I think that would likely take a week to explain hence why ALPA puts on week long negotiating seminars.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Look, both of us agree that pilots should be better compensated for our services, but we differ on strategy and tactics. The overwhelming sentiment on this board is that Canadian pilots aren't compensated as well as US pilots because we lack balls, or whatever, to force a strike until management capitulates. This is incorrect. Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

This is incorrect Bede

It is more complicated than this I agree but essentially it is absolutely true. Air Canada is the flag carrier of this country. It should be an absolute no brainer to work for the lone global carrier but yet somehow through misteps after misteps it isn't

Between the group of 27, ACPA and a 10 yrs labour deal that featured COST NEUTRAL bargaining, Air Canada pilots have been left in the dust when compared to North American legacy carriers

There will ALWAYS be an excuse to why AC pilots should get paid less just like there was an excuse at Encore, and one at WJ, and one at Alaska, and etc...

[Tbayer2021]

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.

Of course they do - as should we. The difference is that they've been successful whereas we have not.

Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

I think that would likely take a week to explain hence why ALPA puts on week long negotiating seminars.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Look, both of us agree that pilots should be better compensated for our services, but we differ on strategy and tactics. The overwhelming sentiment on this board is that Canadian pilots aren't compensated as well as US pilots because we lack balls, or whatever, to force a strike until management capitulates. This is incorrect. Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

This is incorrect Bede

It is more complicated than this I agree but essentially it is absolutely true. Air Canada is the flag carrier of this country. It should be an absolute no brainer to work for the lone global carrier but yet somehow through misteps after misteps it isn't

Between the group of 27, ACPA and a 10 yrs labour deal that featured COST NEUTRAL bargaining, Air Canada pilots have been left in the dust when compared to North American legacy carriers

There will ALWAYS be an excuse to why AC pilots should get paid less just like there was an excuse at Encore, and one at WJ, and one at Alaska, and etc...

Canadian pilots are exceedingly good at coming up with intricate excuses as to why they get paid less. I guess it's better to blame it on some external factor we have no control over than own up to our own failures, make a stand and demand what we're worth.

Converted to Canadian, Jetblue FOs currently starts at 142K and tops out at 322K. A skipper starts at 421K and tops out at 465K. A company that had a revenue of 9B in 2023 with a net loss of just over 300 Million. Some how, we keep coming up with excuses why the company that made 22B in revenue and 3B in profit for the same year, can't pay as much as Jet Blue. Forget about comparing ourselves to Delta, we're not even close to JB.

[twa22]

Of course they do - as should we. The difference is that they've been successful whereas we have not.


I think that would likely take a week to explain hence why ALPA puts on week long negotiating seminars.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Look, both of us agree that pilots should be better compensated for our services, but we differ on strategy and tactics. The overwhelming sentiment on this board is that Canadian pilots aren't compensated as well as US pilots because we lack balls, or whatever, to force a strike until management capitulates. This is incorrect. Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

This is incorrect Bede

It is more complicated than this I agree but essentially it is absolutely true. Air Canada is the flag carrier of this country. It should be an absolute no brainer to work for the lone global carrier but yet somehow through misteps after misteps it isn't

Between the group of 27, ACPA and a 10 yrs labour deal that featured COST NEUTRAL bargaining, Air Canada pilots have been left in the dust when compared to North American legacy carriers

There will ALWAYS be an excuse to why AC pilots should get paid less just like there was an excuse at Encore, and one at WJ, and one at Alaska, and etc...

Converted to Canadian, Jetblue FOs currently starts at 142K and tops out at 322K. A skipper starts at 421K and tops out at 465K.

Not quite, the MMG at Jetblue is 70, taking a year 1 FO, the 2023 starting rates were 85,949 (117,962 CAD at today's current rate) for all fleets, then year 2 is dependent on fleet, but for the 320/321, it's 129,066 (176,733 CAD at today's rate). CA rates for 320/321 Year 1 were 251,921 (344,945 at today's rate). I say were because in 2024 the salaries of course went up slightly

But yes to your point, Jetblue which isn't seen as a legacy airline, although not quite a ULCC either, has much higher starting salaries...

Source:

https://pilotcareercenter.com/Air-Carri ... 03/jetBlue

[RippleRock]

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.

Of course they do - as should we. The difference is that they've been successful whereas we have not.

Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

I think that would likely take a week to explain hence why ALPA puts on week long negotiating seminars.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Look, both of us agree that pilots should be better compensated for our services, but we differ on strategy and tactics. The overwhelming sentiment on this board is that Canadian pilots aren't compensated as well as US pilots because we lack balls, or whatever, to force a strike until management capitulates. This is incorrect. Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

My turn for a one sentence reply.

I disagree 100%.



FWIW, Being a Westjetter, you guys didn't have a "stellar result" did you? Maybe not so wise for us to take advice.

[safetyfirst123]

Respectfully to Bede, I've seen it firsthand when pilots stick together for positive results. Yes there are always external factors, but pilot unity can have very positive results if done correctly.

[FelixGustof]

Lol isn't Bede a WJ pilot?

Why is he arguing why AC pilots should get paid LESS??!!

[Tbayer2021]

This is incorrect Bede

It is more complicated than this I agree but essentially it is absolutely true. Air Canada is the flag carrier of this country. It should be an absolute no brainer to work for the lone global carrier but yet somehow through misteps after misteps it isn't

Between the group of 27, ACPA and a 10 yrs labour deal that featured COST NEUTRAL bargaining, Air Canada pilots have been left in the dust when compared to North American legacy carriers

There will ALWAYS be an excuse to why AC pilots should get paid less just like there was an excuse at Encore, and one at WJ, and one at Alaska, and etc...

Converted to Canadian, Jetblue FOs currently starts at 142K and tops out at 322K. A skipper starts at 421K and tops out at 465K.

Not quite, the MMG at Jetblue is 70, taking a year 1 FO, the 2023 starting rates were 85,949 (117,962 CAD at today's current rate) for all fleets, then year 2 is dependent on fleet, but for the 320/321, it's 129,066 (176,733 CAD at today's rate). CA rates for 320/321 Year 1 were 251,921 (344,945 at today's rate). I say were because in 2024 the salaries of course went up slightly

But yes to your point, Jetblue which isn't seen as a legacy airline, although not quite a ULCC either, has much higher starting salaries...

Source:

https://pilotcareercenter.com/Air-Carri ... 03/jetBlue

Fair, I used the old rule of thumb of multiplying hourly by one thousand since thats usually where one ends up at the end of the year anyways. Between OT and every other extra credit trigger, I've found that to be pretty accurate regardless of MMG. But anyways, you're right!

But, its not just starting salary. It's the whole damn pay scale all the way to the top. A senior 320 cpt at Jet Blue makes more money flying people to Florida than a senior 777 cpt at AC going to HK. Remind me again how long it takes to get to the left seat of the tripple at AC? Even after that two and a half dacades before you're there, you're still not making anywhere near close to what a 320 driver is making. Hell, you're barely making as much as the FO on that JB 320!

[GeoffPilot]

Lol isn't Bede a WJ pilot?

Why is he arguing why AC pilots should get paid LESS??!!

There is so much psychology involved with this stuff and while I have no doubt WJ pilots desperately want AC pilots to raise the bar for pattern bargaining, unfortunately there are still egos involved

Many WJ pilots did not go to AC for whatever reason...conscious choice or perhaps they got PFO'd. There will always be that "what if"

No one likes that "what if" and it could sting if AC pilots were to get a Delta like contract

That could be why Bede is talking down the potential of a huge AC contract. It's just psychology

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Lol isn't Bede a WJ pilot?

Why is he arguing why AC pilots should get paid LESS??!!

You will get haters

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Enjoy lifting 80 lbs pins while laying flat underneath rail cars in the dead of winter. Seeeeeeee yaaaaaaahhhh!

Dude I moved 400lbs drums of diesel by myself in -50 all day long.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Enjoy lifting 80 lbs pins while laying flat underneath rail cars in the dead of winter. Seeeeeeee yaaaaaaahhhh!

Dude I moved 400lbs drums of diesel by myself in -50 all day long.

So did I, and you wanna go back to that?

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Sure, it's a lot easier than jet lag.

[DanWEC]

Might explain why with all the negotiating power of ALPA they are struggling to match the only non-unionized airline.

The fact remains however that a 1-2% fare increase offsets all demands and eliminates the extremely sub-par status quo here.

Unequivocally, it must change. There hasn't been an airline strike here since 1998 and look at what's happened to wages during that time.

[braaap Braap]

Might explain why with all the negotiating power of ALPA they are struggling to match the only non-unionized airline.

Dont think Porter can be regarded as the shining star of representation or employer/employee relations. Remember we all got laid off with 2 days notice while ALPA carriers were able to secure partial blocks, lower MMGs, and at the very least more notice.

We are not making the gains for any reason other than the supply and demand argument. Porters expansion represents a massive demand for pilots and so payscales and bonuses have been (temporarily) deployed to help increase the supply to the groundschools.

Meanwhile our work rules (sorry theyre not rules theyre “guidelines” are being gutted/ignored. The FOAG reps have no help besides what they can scrounge up on their time off. AG is just copying and pasting Air Canadas ACPA dogshit. And we have no recourse besides emails upon emails that get selectively responded to (and for the most part ignored).

[kiaszceski]

Time to unionize.

[DanWEC]

I know. The real value of having ALPA during day-to-day operations is invaluable. I'm very happy to have their representation. As a support network it's fantastic and I'm incredibly appreciative for the work of all the volunteers. I'm just curious as to why we don't see more hardball and gains when it comes to negotiating. Why are we at the bottom still?

[cjp]

It isn't any more complicated than that. It doesn't need to be.

Actually it's a lot more complicated than that.

You're free to disagree Bede, but back it up.

Pilots like to complicate things and look deeper than needed. It's part of our decision making DNA. They believe their costs to the airline are "variable" and maluable. We are driven by emotion during negotiations, and rarely consider logic and facts alone, unlike when we are at the controls.

The thing is, no one is replacing 5300 pilots at this operation as it is impossible. Legislation is being brought forward to make "temporary workers" used to break strikes illegal.....supported by all four Federal parties. If we choose to "down tools", it's a "full stop" until told otherwise.

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.


Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

The reason they get U.S compensation is because they have done right by the shareholders by demonstrating years of subverting ACPA, and thus the pilot group, keeping costs rock bottom.

[Bede]

Lol isn't Bede a WJ pilot?

Why is he arguing why AC pilots should get paid LESS??!!

Sorry, fill me in, where did I say AC pilots should get paid less?

[thepoors]

Lol isn't Bede a WJ pilot?

Why is he arguing why AC pilots should get paid LESS??!!

Sorry, fill me in, where did I say AC pilots should get paid less?

Your "economic conditions" excuse makes you sound like a management shill. This is exactly the kind of bs that comes straight out of their playbook. You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.

A pilot group and union can absolutely make the necessary gains by standing strong and following through. Something WJ ALPA has proven time and again they are incapable of. So while I can understand why you have this attitude, it's not an accurate or realistic take on what effects real organized labour action can have.

[Bede]

Your "economic conditions" excuse makes you sound like a management shill.

No, it makes me sound like I actually have some knowledge on this subject. What you're saying is profoundly dumb. AC economic conditions ($2.3B in earnings divided by ~5000 pilots) is extraordinary. I have to take a look at the Form 41 data, but I suspect that that far exceeds anything in the US. I sure hope your negotiators are banging the "economic conditions" drum. It's never been better for AC pilots.

You've also expressed satisfaction with the new WJ contract - which represents a massive failure to bring any meaningful change under extremely favourable conditions.

I have- as have 87% of my colleagues. We secured virtually everything we wanted without giving anything up. Have you read it? What parts didn't suit your needs?

A pilot group and union can absolutely make the necessary gains by standing strong and following through.

Are there any limits to your necessary gains?

[Fanblade]

Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

Bede,

You stated the cause of our low pay in Canada is the user pay policy. This is something we can’t address. Therefor the implication is we can’t do better.

It is no different than.

You can't have your pre bankruptcy wages back because: you are Canadian.

You can’t have your pre bankruptcy wages back because: of airport fees.

You can’t make the same as them because: there is a border

You can’t make that wage because: government won’t let you strike.

You can’t make that wage because: insert excuse here.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Back to the statement that led to your analysis. This statement is absolutely correct. You can never get blood from a stone. But your conclusion is wrong. It’s filled with management setting the narrative.

Have you noticed how profitable AC is? In reality these fees have been passed onto the consumer. It’s why air travel is expensive in Canada.

ALPA E&FA (Economic & Financial Analysis) says AC can afford to pay us.

Why is a pilot playing along with managements, We can’t because game?

Like I said further up the thread. Our pre bankruptcy wages, inflation adjusted to today are very similar to the Delta pay scales listed above.

Air Canada can afford to pay the going rate. Just because it has been a long time since bankruptcy does not mean.

You can’t have your old wage back because: you took too long