RippleRock wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:28 am
Don't forget "this is Canada".
In this "socialist leaning country" which has more in common with Cuba than the US. The Canadian public is "hardwired" to reject anyone else making more money than they are. That includes anyone. The less the complainers make, the more opposed they are to anyone making more. Sympathy will be nearly non-existent with the average traveller.
Our fight will NOT be won in the Canadian "Court of Public Opinion".....sorry.
It will be won on our determination, by appreciating the value of work we do and putting a realistic value on the sacrifices we make to keep the operation running. FULL STOP.
How high the bar rises, or doesn't, depends on individual willingness to HOLD the LINE. This is 100% a participation activity.
FWIW, I wish the strike vote was an "open vote". Those who undermine ALPA in its endevour to reach "wage parity" with our North American counterparts by voting "no", should be stuck with the current contract. Every rotting bit of it. I mean, why drag any "black lanyard wearer" kicking and screaming into better wages and working conditions??? By wearing anything other than a "red lanyard" they are actively "showing their hand" in that they don't wish any gains for you or your family. Why should they get any gains on your effort by "default".
While I think you're right to some extent I also think you're underestimating the average Canadian's hatred towards Air Canada "the company." I think ALPA is doing a great job of painting the company leadership in a negative light and separating the pilot group from that.
I also think, collectively, Canadians are tired of our oligopolies abusing their customers and employees. Loblaws, Bell, Rogers, TD, AC, etc. The current economic climate and unaffordability, combined with the tone deaf rhetoric from these corps is driving people away and giving them a new perspective.
As for the cretins still wearing black lanyards - I don't legitimately don't understand how anyone who's not a management cuck would continue to wear them. I agree these people should be named and shamed.
Again, you all think the general public will give a shit about the narrative or who locked who out. No!
They won’t give a shit, they don’t care about mainline or legacy carriers, they don’t care about hourly rates, they don’t care about pilot seniority, they dont care about pay discrepancies between Canadian and Americans, all they’ll know is their flights are cancelled and their vacations or work trips are screwed.
Then because the company and liberal government are in bed together and with the government controlling much of the media in Canada all they will hear is a smear campaign against the pilots.
ALPA can post all the Facebook articles they want, the majority of the public doesn’t even see those, they wont even come close to achieving the public reach AC and the government will have.
We all support you and wish you the best, however i really think you are wrong in thinking the company is worried about public reaction to a strike or lockout. They already know everyone outside of aviation will be on their side.
First, sure, the company can and will pay for op-eds, but that's all. Neither them nor the gov't can simply pressure editors or journalists to write actual articles to promote their agenda. Also, ALPA will be buying opposing op-eds from their perspective and they have the natural advantage of being read by an audience who are increasingly unfriendly towards corporations, as well as having the benefit of hard comparative numbers on their side.
Next, if you take a look at every article and opinion piece in the last year about strikes, especially in the aviation sector, you'll find that about 7 out 10 comments are supportive of the employees. This is coming from a public who is weary and frustrated over high cost of living, stagnating wages, and angry over spiraling C-suite compensation. This isn't my opinion, this is fact, by data derived from every article I could find with comments I could review.
If it comes to a strike, mark my words and I'll stand by them- or eat them, but I firmly believe AC will not have the any public sympathy by crying about being the lowest paying legacy airline on the continent.
When AMFA went on strike they weren't at all concerned with public perception. They didn't try to get people on their side, or get their side of the story into the media while WJ execs were painting them as wildcats. They simply turned the lights off at 6pm on Friday and went home for the weekend. By Sunday night they had the deal they wanted.
Stable_Approach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:19 pm
No lockout. Government will push it to arbitration and AC pilots will get 30-34% increase and that will be the end of it.
Kevin?
Strike is now a constitutional right.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We all support you and wish you the best, however i really think you are wrong in thinking the company is worried about public reaction to a strike or lockout. They already know everyone outside of aviation will be on their side.
It’s forward bookings they will be concerned with. The uncertainty that unknown labour action creates. It’s expensive. Already impacting the share price.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stable_Approach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:19 pm
No lockout. Government will push it to arbitration and AC pilots will get 30-34% increase and that will be the end of it.
Can’t be forced into binding arbitration unless ALPA agrees to it which they won’t.
The company propaganda has begun to be spread on the line by the usual company puppets. Trust your ALPA reps and speak to a P2P if you have questions about what you are hearing. Also, be honest with the union survey. Don’t try to negotiate with the negotiating committee by telling them you want more than you really want. Let the negotiating committee do the negotiating. They will try to get the best deal possible, not just the minimum that the pilots say on the surveys.
We live in a different labour climate now. I’m sick of pilots thinking we have to win over or negotiate the with government and/or the public. Fact is, we don’t. There have been numerous examples of unions flat out ignoring government directives in the past 2 years and in all cases the government backed down completely from their threats.
The government can threaten us with legislation, arbitration, fines, or even jail; but they can’t tie us to the seats at gunpoint and make us fly the airplanes. 5000 pilots are not replaceable in any short to medium time frame either.
Hold fast and stay unified and courageous. All we are asking is for the company to pay market rates for our services.
HavaJava wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 3:33 am
There have been numerous examples of unions flat out ignoring government directives in the past 2 years and in all cases the government backed down completely from their threats.
In those situations did their union leaders direct their members to ignore the government or was it the members themselves that decided to? I'm just deciding what I personally would do in the highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
They will not allow us to strike. That would leave assets in random locations all over the world. A logistical nightmare. They will need to wind down the operation in an orderly fashion, ensuring the aircraft are "where they want them"......not where we leave them.
So, yes, they will lock us out, 100%.
It will be a game of "brinkmanship". Who is going to blink first. There is no way our employer is going to happily walk away from the cheapest pilots ever to exist at a Legacy Carrier. Our new wages will be hard fought.....don't doubt it. Be ready.
Just trying to wrap my head around this. If AC locks out pilots, don’t they have no airline? How would that pressure ALPA/the pilot group to give in? Can’t imagine they would literally stop all flights for weeks or months to refuse the desired contract. Not to mention the customer service required…
I'm with you there. I don't see how/why the company would have any motivation for a lockout, it will only work in our favour not theirs. They have dragged these negots out precisely to avoid a work stoppage for as long as possible. What would they accomplish with a lockout? Either way, we have them by the balls. Let's get this done, and get the wawcon we deserve.
AC is a global airline and won't want aircraft sitting all over the planet without any crews there once things get moving again (crews will all be home).
If there is a strike vote and threat of strike, the company will 100% lock out to control the fleet. But it's semantics. Strik/Lockout... it's the same thing.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
VFS wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:59 pm
Again, you all think the general public will give a shit about the narrative or who locked who out. No!
They won’t give a shit, they don’t care about mainline or legacy carriers, they don’t care about hourly rates, they don’t care about pilot seniority, they dont care about pay discrepancies between Canadian and Americans, all they’ll know is their flights are cancelled and their vacations or work trips are screwed.
Then because the company and liberal government are in bed together and with the government controlling much of the media in Canada all they will hear is a smear campaign against the pilots.
ALPA can post all the Facebook articles they want, the majority of the public doesn’t even see those, they wont even come close to achieving the public reach AC and the government will have.
We all support you and wish you the best, however i really think you are wrong in thinking the company is worried about public reaction to a strike or lockout. They already know everyone outside of aviation will be on their side.
Every single one of my friends who are super elites are unhappy with AC and the service. They also aren't happy knowing the people who have their lives in their hands are poorly compensated. As a result they are all writing in letters of support for our contract. Do they represent the majority? No. Are you somewhat right? Sure, some will be too mad about their travel plans being disrupted to care, but that disdain will be directed more towards the corp than the pilots. How do I know? Ask around. I don't know many people who believe pilots SHOULDN'T be well compensated. And the messages ALPA is putting out to the public seem to be doing a good job of painting a picture of how we are fairing vs others and there is definitely sympathy. As was mentioned in an above post, most people are sick of C-suites lining their pockets on the backs of their employees. Sympathy will lean towards the pilots over the corp.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
Well that makes up my mind. Thank you for the kind reassurance.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
ALPA is already working with Federal Conciliators and they will be present when AC meets with the union. Both company and union are bound by recommendations/decisions whether in their favour or not unlike a mediator.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
ALPA is already working with Federal Conciliators and they will be present when AC meets with the union. Both company and union are bound by recommendations/decisions whether in their favour or not unlike a mediator.
Okay now you just proved you don’t understand the process.
Mediation and Conciliation are basically the same thing. Mediation usually paid help. Kind of like marriage counselling. Conciliation is a Government agency doing the same thing. You appear to be confusing conciliation with arbitration.
Conciliation is the first step toward exercising your right to strike. Conciliator’s do not have the power to impose anything on either party.
Requirements to go on strike.
- 60 days of conciliation
- 21 days cooling off period after conciliation ends
- min 72 hours strike notice.
- Strike vote in previous 60 days.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
ALPA is already working with Federal Conciliators and they will be present when AC meets with the union. Both company and union are bound by recommendations/decisions whether in their favour or not unlike a mediator.
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
ALPA is already working with Federal Conciliators and they will be present when AC meets with the union. Both company and union are bound by recommendations/decisions whether in their favour or not unlike a mediator.
Ummm, no. A conciliator IS a mediator. You're confusing conciliator with arbitrator
con·cil·i·a·tor
noun
a person who acts as a mediator between two disputing people or groups.
ar·bi·tra·tor
noun
an independent person or body officially appointed to settle a dispute
**** wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:23 pm
...highly unlikely event the government tries to force us back with legislation.
The Federal Government cannot, cannot, legislate Federally Regulated workers back to work with strike breaking legislation. This has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada. The court also ruled that a worker's right to strike is constitutionally protected...
No government can enact legislation to force workers to return to work. Period. It doesn't matter if Harper and Flat Raitt suddenly return to office, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with the "labour friendly" Liberal/NDP coalition.
Now, get back to preparing for the inevitable labour action that will occur later this Summer or early Fall.
ALPA is already working with Federal Conciliators and they will be present when AC meets with the union. Both company and union are bound by recommendations/decisions whether in their favour or not unlike a mediator.
The pilots are not bound by any recommendations/decision. Quit spreading misinformation.
There are so many people on the line who are looking forward to fighting for this world class contract that our MEC is gunning for. We have so many FOs on flat pay that will get paid more while being on strike.
