WJ Merger Committee should he ashamed

[Nauclerus]

Imagine being a widebody captain in the sandpit, coming back to canada getting a job at an airline that has relatively quick upgrades, then being sold to an other airlines and now your upgrade will take 12 years.

Sounds like a DEC Swoop Scab ? Speaking of Swoop Scabs how many of them came from Sunwing ? There's some Karma for you.

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... rier-swoop

[Handover]

Imagine being a widebody captain in the sandpit, coming back to canada getting a job at an airline that has relatively quick upgrades, then being sold to an other airlines and now your upgrade will take 12 years.

Sounds like a DEC Swoop Scab ? Speaking of Swoop Scabs how many of them came from Sunwing ? There's some Karma for you.

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... rier-swoop

I currently work for Sunwing. Nothing to do with Swoop. If I had gone to Swoop, I would have gone DEC but that was well before I got back and not my style. But nice try at detraction from the point. Not everyone you disagree with is a swoop scab.

then being sold to an other airlines

ps. didn't realise that swoop was sold to westjet. Do you have the source for that?

[cdnavater]

Imagine being a widebody captain in the sandpit, coming back to canada getting a job at an airline that has relatively quick upgrades, then being sold to an other airlines and now your upgrade will take 12 years.

Sounds like a DEC Swoop Scab ? Speaking of Swoop Scabs how many of them came from Sunwing ? There's some Karma for you.

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... rier-swoop

This is not the same thing, Swoop was a “Scab airline”, Sunwing was an airline with quick upgrades, if you want to argue they were paid lower than average that would be fair. If you want to argue the “ScumWing” damaged the industry with their foreign pilots coming here year after year, that’s fair!

[Nauclerus]

This is not the same thing, Swoop was a “Scab airline”, Sunwing was an airline with quick upgrades

I wasn't trying to equate Sunwing with Swoop nor imply Handover was a Swoop Scab. My remark was to directed at Handovers point about how screwed up this industy is with the comment "Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud." The Swoop fiasco is just another example of this and another element to this whole mess. It would be interesting to see WestJets list rebid from the top based on total industry experience and not just the luck of when you happened to get hired. Not that it will ever happen but some sort of National Seniority list is needed so this nonsense can't happen again.

[cdnavater]

This is not the same thing, Swoop was a “Scab airline”, Sunwing was an airline with quick upgrades

I wasn't trying to equate Sunwing with Swoop nor imply Handover was a Swoop Scab. My remark was to directed at Handovers point about how screwed up this industy is with the comment "Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud." The Swoop fiasco is just another example of this and another element to this whole mess. It would be interesting to see WestJets list rebid from the top based on total industry experience and not just the luck of when you happened to get hired. Not that it will ever happen but some sort of National Seniority list is needed so this nonsense can't happen again.

Ok, I can agree with that, I have always supported experience counting and a national list would absolutely benefit me as I got my ATPL 12 years before joining the airlines but it will never happen.
You cannot mess with the seniority of a pilot at their choice of company, first in is the only thing company specific benefit that pilots have!
I despise the starting over crap that is part of this career and feel that experience should place you on the pay scale appropriate to that, not the position you can hold. A pilots choice will affect their career greatly, choose the wrong company and you’re starting over when shit happens, go overseas and a global pandemic sends you home, you’re starting over, these are the ramifications of choosing certain paths but pilots who choose to stay put at one company or stay in Canada should not be punished for someone else’s choice to come back, or move around chasing money.
In my opinion a national seniority list that is based on when you get your ATPL or whatever doesn’t work, what if you get your ATPL and then go work for a non aviation job for 20 years, then come back and what, slide in where your number is?
The only fair and equitable option is that companies recognize experience and compensate accordingly. Ie; every 1000 PIC gets you a year up on the step pay, even top scale in the example flying in the sandpit and you come back with 12,000 hours of command time but the company seniority list has to stay intact.
Good luck getting companies on board with that, why would they pay you top scale when a fresh ATPL can do the job for bottom scale!

[Handover]

This not the same thing, Swoop was a “Scab airline”, Sunwing was an airline with quick upgrades

I wasn't trying to equate Sunwing with Swoop nor imply Handover was a Swoop Scab. My remark was to directed at Handovers point about how screwed up this industy is with the comment "Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud." The Swoop fiasco is just another example of this and another element to this whole mess. It would be interesting to see WestJets list rebid from the top based on total industry experience and not just the luck of when you happened to get hired. Not that it will ever happen but some sort of National Seniority list is needed so this nonsense can't happen again.

Absolutely, the industry's a mess, and a national seniority list based on actual experience might just be the shake-up we need. Instead of pilots being stuck because they joined the "wrong" airline at the "wrong" time, their hard-earned hours would finally mean something. It would force airlines to value experience over sheer luck of the draw, pushing them to offer better pay and conditions to keep seasoned pilots on board. Maybe then we wouldn't see this constant shuffle where experienced pilots get sidelined. Not that it's likely to happen, but implementing something like this could put an end to the recurring chaos we keep seeing.

Hopefully with everyone alpa we can actually get something like this in play.

[Tbayer2021]

This not the same thing, Swoop was a “Scab airline”, Sunwing was an airline with quick upgrades

I wasn't trying to equate Sunwing with Swoop nor imply Handover was a Swoop Scab. My remark was to directed at Handovers point about how screwed up this industy is with the comment "Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud." The Swoop fiasco is just another example of this and another element to this whole mess. It would be interesting to see WestJets list rebid from the top based on total industry experience and not just the luck of when you happened to get hired. Not that it will ever happen but some sort of National Seniority list is needed so this nonsense can't happen again.

Absolutely, the industry's a mess, and a national seniority list based on actual experience might just be the shake-up we need. Instead of pilots being stuck because they joined the "wrong" airline at the "wrong" time, their hard-earned hours would finally mean something. It would force airlines to value experience over sheer luck of the draw, pushing them to offer better pay and conditions to keep seasoned pilots on board. Maybe then we wouldn't see this constant shuffle where experienced pilots get sidelined. Not that it's likely to happen, but implementing something like this could put an end to the recurring chaos we keep seeing.

Hopefully with everyone alpa we can actually get something like this in play.

We have seen this implemented by even unionized airlines that have struggled to attract talent. I believe it was Wasaya that was offering some sort of experience credit to new hires. I believe Porter was also offering years of service for their OTS E2 captains at one point, but not 100% sure on that one.

This is the reality of such idea. It doesn't matter how much the pilot group wants it, the only way it's getting implemented is if companies are struggling to attract pilots. Even then, it will most likely be a temporary measure while things return to normal.

[ads-b]

That would require pilots to negotiate raises for pilots not even employed at that respective company. Do you think those groups are going to vote for raises for themselves or raises for people not even hired.

Contracts are about individuals inside a broader group. People vote for themselves. Not for the group.

You’d need one pay scale for all companies in canada. Then move to your respective pay rate when you change companies.

Maybe why I’m happy we’re all becoming ALPA. Not that I’m impressed by ALPA, but at least we’re under one umbrella. Get together boys and girls. One company isn’t better then the other.

[Tbayer2021]

That would require pilots to negotiate raises for pilots not even employed at that respective company. Do you think those groups are going to vote for raises for themselves or raises for people not even hired.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a separate pay-scale or anything along those lines. It would be the exact same pay-scale with the difference being that if you were an FO for 5 years at the previous company, you'd start at 5th year FO pay at your new company and so forth. An FO at said company would also be paid the same once they reach that step. Seniority would still dictate what you get when it comes to schedule bidding, vacation bidding, etc.

[ads-b]

It wouldn’t be a separate pay scale. When you go into negotiate the company has a bag of money. You negotiate where it goes. What I’m saying is no group is going to negotiate money to pilots not hired at that company over pilots already there.

ok I’ll keep my 65G a year as a year 1 FO so we can pay a new hire with 4 years experience at another airline 120g to get hired behind me and go to year 4 FO.

Never happening.

[Tbayer2021]

It wouldn’t be a separate pay scale. When you go into negotiate the company has a bag of money. You negotiate where it goes. What I’m saying is no group is going to negotiate money to pilots not hired at that company over pilots already there.

ok I’ll keep my 65G a year as a year 1 FO so we can pay a new hire with 4 years experience at another airline 120g to get hired behind me and go to year 4 FO.

Never happening.

Out of all the potential issues with a system like this, I really don't see this hypothetical situation being one. I mean, we literally have unions currently sending most gains to senior pilots as is.

[Commonwealth]

I recently learned that in the oil and gas sector an employee can bring their years of service with them when they change companies. A buddies spouse retired recently and recieves fully paid medical and dental benefits FOR LIFE. She worked for the last company for 5 years. No wonder we are looked down on.

[Tbayer2021]

I recently learned that in the oil and gas sector an employee can bring their years of service with them when they change companies. A buddies spouse retired recently and recieves fully paid medical and dental benefits FOR LIFE. She worked for the last company for 5 years. No wonder we are looked down on.

This happens at literally every profession but ours. An engineer with X years of experience doesn't go back the salary of a person who just earned their P.Eng simply because they changed companies. The same goes for every other white or blue collar job you can think of. A dry wall installer's years of experience are recognized financially and in other ways when changing companies. Starting at the bottom for having the audacity to switch companies is very unique to this profession.

[munzil]

I recently learned that in the oil and gas sector an employee can bring their years of service with them when they change companies. A buddies spouse retired recently and recieves fully paid medical and dental benefits FOR LIFE. She worked for the last company for 5 years. No wonder we are looked down on.

This happens at literally every profession but ours. An engineer with X years of experience doesn't go back the salary of a person who just earned their P.Eng simply because they changed companies. The same goes for every other white or blue collar job you can think of. A dry wall installer's years of experience are recognized financially and in other ways when changing companies. Starting at the bottom for having the audacity to switch companies is very unique to this profession.

It's largely due to unions and the pilot community's fixation on seniority lists. Just look at the recent issues between WJA and SWG, where there was significant uproar when seniority was bypassed—even in a company with socialized bidding. If we wanted to change the system, we could, but we're too focused on valuing tenure over actual merit and experience.

[Tbayer2021]

I recently learned that in the oil and gas sector an employee can bring their years of service with them when they change companies. A buddies spouse retired recently and recieves fully paid medical and dental benefits FOR LIFE. She worked for the last company for 5 years. No wonder we are looked down on.

This happens at literally every profession but ours. An engineer with X years of experience doesn't go back the salary of a person who just earned their P.Eng simply because they changed companies. The same goes for every other white or blue collar job you can think of. A dry wall installer's years of experience are recognized financially and in other ways when changing companies. Starting at the bottom for having the audacity to switch companies is very unique to this profession.

It's largely due to unions and the pilot community's fixation on seniority lists. Just look at the recent issues between WJA and SWG, where there was significant uproar when seniority was bypassed—even in a company with socialized bidding. If we wanted to change the system, we could, but we're too focused on valuing tenure over actual merit and experience.

I'm not so sure its mostly due to unions. Plenty of other unionized professions where this isn't a problem. I don't think a union would fight back against the company paying more to new hires based on experience. You DoH will still dictate where you sit on the seniority list, but pay can be a whole separate issue. There is no "divine law" that says a pilot must start at year 1 FO pay. Wasaya literally did this a while ago when they were struggling to find candidates. Recognized YoS for the purposes of pay for new hires.

The problem is that a company has no incentive to do such ting if they're not struggling to find pilots since they'd much rather place a new hire on the very first rung, than say, 5th of 10th step.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I wasn't trying to equate Sunwing with Swoop nor imply Handover was a Swoop Scab. My remark was to directed at Handovers point about how screwed up this industy is with the comment "Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud." The Swoop fiasco is just another example of this and another element to this whole mess. It would be interesting to see WestJets list rebid from the top based on total industry experience and not just the luck of when you happened to get hired. Not that it will ever happen but some sort of National Seniority list is needed so this nonsense can't happen again.

Absolutely, the industry's a mess, and a national seniority list based on actual experience might just be the shake-up we need. Instead of pilots being stuck because they joined the "wrong" airline at the "wrong" time, their hard-earned hours would finally mean something. It would force airlines to value experience over sheer luck of the draw, pushing them to offer better pay and conditions to keep seasoned pilots on board. Maybe then we wouldn't see this constant shuffle where experienced pilots get sidelined. Not that it's likely to happen, but implementing something like this could put an end to the recurring chaos we keep seeing.

Hopefully with everyone alpa we can actually get something like this in play.

I believe Porter was also offering years of service for their OTS E2 captains at one point, but not 100% sure on that one.

Porter was offering years of service on the Q4 from other companies if you had heavy turboprop. Q4, ATR, classic dash. It was not offered on the e2.

But catching up on all this thread, I agree… it’s tough to restart anywhere at the bottom.

[Tbayer2021]

Absolutely, the industry's a mess, and a national seniority list based on actual experience might just be the shake-up we need. Instead of pilots being stuck because they joined the "wrong" airline at the "wrong" time, their hard-earned hours would finally mean something. It would force airlines to value experience over sheer luck of the draw, pushing them to offer better pay and conditions to keep seasoned pilots on board. Maybe then we wouldn't see this constant shuffle where experienced pilots get sidelined. Not that it's likely to happen, but implementing something like this could put an end to the recurring chaos we keep seeing.

Hopefully with everyone alpa we can actually get something like this in play.

I believe Porter was also offering years of service for their OTS E2 captains at one point, but not 100% sure on that one.

Porter was offering years of service on the Q4 from other companies if you had heavy turboprop. Q4, ATR, classic dash. It was not offered on the e2.

But catching up on all this thread, I agree… it’s tough to restart anywhere at the bottom.

Ah thats what it was! So there we go, two examples proving that it very well can be done, but companies will only do it when struggling to find pilots.

[‘Bob’]

There's an enigma of unions in airlines.

In almost all other industries they compress wages by offering people with almost no experience a lot of money to start, and they pay more and have better lifestyle than their non-union counterparts.

In aviation it's the opposite, shit starting wages, almost no lifestyle, and because of how unstable the industry is its more of a question of when you will have to start again at the bottom not if.

There are the cheat codes too. Some are known, like working for Encore if AC is your goal and working for Jazz if WJ is your goal. Some are unknown, like who knew that SW would be the best path to WJ? Then there's how shrewd you are. Unions are for seniority and advancement but not starting wage. Negotiate the hell out of your initial offer.

A National Seniority List? HA! From the bottom of Air Canada or middle of West Jet it makes sense. But do you think for one second that a 4yr AC captain would tolerate a 9 yr WJ FO displacing him? These are the walls we build ourselves.

Just remember, life isn't fair. There's always going to someone younger than you, less experienced than you, and dumber than you holding a better position and making more money than you. Them's the breaks.

[munzil]

There's an enigma of unions in airlines.

In almost all other industries they compress wages by offering people with almost no experience a lot of money to start, and they pay more and have better lifestyle than their non-union counterparts .

Sorry what???! Can you give a example of these? Outside of socialist paradise of Canada would be also a good starting point.

Engineers? Computer programmers? Architects? Engineers? Bankers? Doctors?

Or are you comparing pilots to bus drivers, miners, construction workers, educators, public service?

I have not idea why Canadians are so infatuated with unions yet you all earn some of the worst salaries in the first world. Just an enigma

[MaxAuto]

https://contentsharing.net/actions/emai ... d=64232664

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