FOAG 2025

[Flaps_30]

What I meant was, do they have any form of long call reserve? Or just the standard 2 hours to report to the gate from being called?

As for the training, it blows my mind that they don't think this is an issue. I've spoken with a few porter pilots who have all confirmed having to spend in excess of 5k on food and accommodations while attending ground school.

[cdnavater]

What I meant was, do they have any form of long call reserve? Or just the standard 2 hours to report to the gate from being called?

As for the training, it blows my mind that they don't think this is an issue. I've spoken with a few porter pilots who have all confirmed having to spend in excess of 5k on food and accommodations while attending ground school.

It’s not an issue until people start turning the job down and citing the pay for your own training accommodations as the reason! Until then, not likely to change, however you will find that I don’t contribute to this site in a positive way and my opinion is not worth the bandwidth I used to type this;)

[Allfourseasons]

The aggregate raise from FOAG 15 with the 1.5% CPI to FOAG 16 for the E2 FOs through 5 years is 1.1%. That is a kick in the teeth to a group of pilots who are actively considering the option to go to Air Canada. Year 2 E2 FOs in particular are taking a 50c per credit cut, where a majority of the E2 First Officers are in the scale. I cannot imagine this helps with our retention whatsoever and the word on the grapevine is many of them are already pursuing Big Red.

Incredibly underwhelming, and potentially catastrophic to retention during the expansion.

[higherisbetter]

Yep, see the E2 FO scale is just humiliating. Almost all E2 FO are over 85h a month anyway so increase the month minimum from 75 to 77.5 does NOTHING but make the numbers looks pretty. Let's say it's year 2 E2 FO. You got a pay raise from $7500 to $7827.5, that sounds like a 4.37% pay raise. However, if you are block 85 a month anyway, that's $8500 to $8585 with an increase of 1% for 1.5 years since last benchmark in the summer of 2023, thinking about all those inflation......that's a pay cut , unfortunately.

[flyingpilot]

I don’t think a lot of people have noticed the pay decrease yet.

[goingnowherefast]

I don’t think a lot of people have noticed the pay decrease yet.

That's not how inflation works. The income stays the same, or goes up at a rate less than inflation. End result means the person can't buy as much with their income and lifestyle decreases.

1% pay raise and ~4% inflation since summer 2023 means their buying power and lifestyle decreased 3%. Not vividly apparent, but still a decrease very real.

[rudder]

The aggregate raise from FOAG 15 with the 1.5% CPI to FOAG 16 for the E2 FOs through 5 years is 1.1%. That is a kick in the teeth to a group of pilots who are actively considering the option to go to Air Canada. Year 2 E2 FOs in particular are taking a 50c per credit cut, where a majority of the E2 First Officers are in the scale. I cannot imagine this helps with our retention whatsoever and the word on the grapevine is many of them are already pursuing Big Red.

Incredibly underwhelming, and potentially catastrophic to retention during the expansion.

Targeted pay increases. It is a strategy that has been used elsewhere. Not sure that it has been demonstrably successful but seems Porter desperately wants to avoid where Jazz/Encore find themselves (lack of CA).

The calculus for Porter is retention of current E2 CA with enough incentive for either upgrade on type for qualified candidates or CA-CA transfer from the Q.

No doubt that DEC will have to be considered again if internal supply does not meet the operational requirements of the commercial plan.

There is a long history of carriers (and some of their union counterparts) treating $$ allocated to the FO pay scale as an inefficient use of capital. In a stable staffing environment (limited attrition opportunities) or unlimited pilot supply that might be sustainable. It will be interesting to see if that works in 2025. Ultimately it will be largely impacted by volume of AC hiring which for 2025 is projected to be fairly modest as compared to recent annualized totals.

[8895]

The aggregate raise from FOAG 15 with the 1.5% CPI to FOAG 16 for the E2 FOs through 5 years is 1.1%. That is a kick in the teeth to a group of pilots who are actively considering the option to go to Air Canada. Year 2 E2 FOs in particular are taking a 50c per credit cut, where a majority of the E2 First Officers are in the scale. I cannot imagine this helps with our retention whatsoever and the word on the grapevine is many of them are already pursuing Big Red.

Incredibly underwhelming, and potentially catastrophic to retention during the expansion.

Targeted pay increases. It is a strategy that has been used elsewhere. Not sure that it has been demonstrably successful but seems Porter desperately wants to avoid where Jazz/Encore find themselves (lack of CA).

The calculus for Porter is retention of current E2 CA with enough incentive for either upgrade on type for qualified candidates or CA-CA transfer from the Q.

No doubt that DEC will have to be considered again if internal supply does not meet the operational requirements of the commercial plan.

There is a long history of carriers (and some of their union counterparts) treating $$ allocated to the FO pay scale as an inefficient use of capital. In a stable staffing environment (limited attrition opportunities) or unlimited pilot supply that might be sustainable. It will be interesting to see if that works in 2025. Ultimately it will be largely impacted by volume of AC hiring which for 2025 is projected to be fairly modest as compared to recent annualized totals.

Speaking with friends at AC it sounds like those modest hiring numbers might be deceptive. From what I’ve heard it’s simply giving the training department a bit of a chance to catch up, those projected vacancies only account for retirements and nothing else, and with a ton of tails due for delivery in Q1 ‘26 I imagine at least the second half of ‘25 will see hiring going on all cylinders again. Call me bias but I think this will blow up in their face big time.

[dontcallmeshirley]

He’s not, year 2 FO e2 goes from 100$ to 101$. Arguably your MMG went up by 2.5 hours. So that’s two and a half dollars a month.

That's $327.50 per month, but who's counting?

[cdnavater]

He’s not, year 2 FO e2 goes from 100$ to 101$. Arguably your MMG went up by 2.5 hours. So that’s two and a half dollars a month.

That's $327.50 per month, but who's counting?

While you would be correct if you said the minimum went up by 327.50, nobody has be flying the MMG according to previous posters. So, technically they got a raise of around 80-85 dollars per month at the blocking average.

[8895]

He’s not, year 2 FO e2 goes from 100$ to 101$. Arguably your MMG went up by 2.5 hours. So that’s two and a half dollars a month.

That's $327.50 per month, but who's counting?

If you hold a line you’re getting blocked at about 85 hours each month. In an earlier pilot call the company has also said in predicts a significant spike in flying during a couple periods next year. This MMG increase is very irrelevant and in practical terms was indeed a slight pay cut for Y2 FO’s on the E2.

[Bede]

Respectfully, you guys are all looking at the wrong thing. A couple dollars here, a bit more MMG there. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Your biggest concern is scope. Scope is what determines if you upgrade when the company grows or if management has some hair brained mechanism to out source your work when your experience and value becomes too expensive.

I like Porter. It's a great airline, but your scope provision isn't worth the paper it's written on. I have first hand experience. At WJ, we had similar "scope protection" in our WJPA Agreement. This was until management didn't like the union drive and started Swoop. The scope clause was blatantly ignored. There was nothing we could do but certify and bargain for it back.

I'm not making an argument for or against certification, but, carefully consider your priorities. Scope is #1.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Respectfully, you guys are all looking at the wrong thing. A couple dollars here, a bit more MMG there. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Your biggest concern is scope. Scope is what determines if you upgrade when the company grows or if management has some hair brained mechanism to out source your work when your experience and value becomes too expensive.

I like Porter. It's a great airline, but your scope provision isn't worth the paper it's written on. I have first hand experience. At WJ, we had similar "scope protection" in our WJPA Agreement. This was until management didn't like the union drive and started Swoop. The scope clause was blatantly ignored. There was nothing we could do but certify and bargain for it back.

I'm not making an argument for or against certification, but, carefully consider your priorities. Scope is #1.

You guys had flow for Encore pilots and gave it up for minor gain. It's shit if you do, shit if you don't.

[goingnowherefast]

Respectfully, you guys are all looking at the wrong thing. A couple dollars here, a bit more MMG there. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Your biggest concern is scope. Scope is what determines if you upgrade when the company grows or if management has some hair brained mechanism to out source your work when your experience and value becomes too expensive.

I like Porter. It's a great airline, but your scope provision isn't worth the paper it's written on. I have first hand experience. At WJ, we had similar "scope protection" in our WJPA Agreement. This was until management didn't like the union drive and started Swoop. The scope clause was blatantly ignored. There was nothing we could do but certify and bargain for it back.

I'm not making an argument for or against certification, but, carefully consider your priorities. Scope is #1.

Well said! Scope is an understatement. Your post also leads to another point. A legitimate grievance process. WJ started Swoop, and WJPA had no teeth to deal with it. Try that under a union contract and it'll be dealt with pretty quickly.

Without a proper grievance process, any abuses of the document by the company (crew sked, management, etc.), what's really gonna happen? Complain to management? They're the judge, jury, executioner and beneficiary. There is no recourse if they disagree or just don't care.

[flyingpilot]

Is it just me or do the percentage increases not match the actual hourly rates??

[PRM1]

Is it just me or do the percentage increases not match the actual hourly rates??

The percentage increases are for salary at 77.5 mmg, not per hour increases.

[flyingpilot]

Wonder how many FOs are going to leave. No wonder they didn't release it before christmas.

[flyinhigh]

There is not a single FO i've talked to that does not have a resume out now. Pretty sad.

Again, more time spent trying to replicate ALPA and fight the drive than focus on pilots. Take the banked deadheads for example. How do you release this benchmark with a "PROCESS TO BE DEFINED". You define the process before you release it so that it's not a carrot again.

Secondly, why a vote with no option for a NO vote. It's so that in 6 months when people are complaining the company can say "well you voted for this".

Thirdly, What Bede said. The scope is useless and can be overwritten the day after this comes into effect. Also it doesn't even cover the aspects we are currently engaged in, that being Joint Venture and Code Share.

Fourthly, we have 3 class's of pilots (so much for unity). OG pilots, Training Pilots, than everyone else. Guess it doesn't help that the FOAG reps cover the first two class's. Much like the liberals, cover your own butts first.

If anyone is fed up with this, reach out the the guys at porterpilotsforchange@gmail.com to show your support. ALPA is not the saving grace but a solid resource and the guys running it want true unity, not division.

[gowest]

-What is an OG pilot?

Yes, it is sad to see all these good FO leave...

[cjp]

-What is an OG pilot?

Yes, it is sad to see all these good FO leave...

Not taking it literally as the acronym means original gangster, its used in this sense to refer to the original Dash pilots prior to the introduction of the E2. Essentially anyone roughly 6900 seniority or lower.

[flyinhigh]

Not taking it literally as the acronym means original gangster, its used in this sense to refer to the original Dash pilots prior to the introduction of the E2. Essentially anyone roughly 6900 seniority or lower.

No in this sense, it's https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/OG

In the sense that the 2 of 5 FOAG reps are the top 10% of the Master Seniority List who get to bid properly (As they should). After that its created division and is like screw you.

Bid is now,
Top 10% of the Master Seniority List,
Training pairings pulled and bid upon by trainers (getting pairings that absolutely should be going to senior pilots)
Than everyone else.

[flyingpilot]

Its sad to see the FOs left behind in this so called benchmark.
And to add to that there are no significant improvements what so ever to quality of life. I wonder how the roadshows are going to go, if there is any at all.

[goingnowherefast]

Not taking it literally as the acronym means original gangster, its used in this sense to refer to the original Dash pilots prior to the introduction of the E2. Essentially anyone roughly 6900 seniority or lower.

No in this sense, it's https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/OG

In the sense that the 2 of 5 FOAG reps are the top 10% of the Master Seniority List who get to bid properly (As they should). After that its created division and is like screw you.

Bid is now,
Top 10% of the Master Seniority List,
Training pairings pulled and bid upon by trainers (getting pairings that absolutely should be going to senior pilots)
Than everyone else.

Sweeten the deal to help themselves out most? Sounds like they're representing their own interests above those of the pilots they're supposed to be representing.

[flyinhigh]

I did forget to add that a 3rd FOAG rep is a trainer/checker so benefits directly from the pulling of pairings as well.

So yes, own interests is a thing.

[TheStig]

There is not a single FO i've talked to that does not have a resume out now. Pretty sad.

I can think of at least one.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

We can see from this TA that AC doesn't want to attract Porter Captains, Flair Captains and it certainly wants the Captains it has left at Jazz to stay there. Air Canada is content to hire First Officers from Porter, Flair and Jazz. The pay tables, changes to per diem, and ADG demonstrate that it's trying to bait senior FO's into upgrading through both Captain loaded pay scales and QOL improvements to junior narrow body schedules.

I’m under 30 and an E2 FO and this isn’t nearly enough to get me to apply.