703...or... 704...or both... a managers dream

[Ranger]

This is a grey area in a lot of ways for sure!! If a guy flies 2 weeks of medevacs, then wants to work some OT doing 704 skeds he can't without having 3 off first?? Looks that way to me.... Also, I agree that no where in the CARS does it say you CAN'T fly 14 hours of 704 and do your 15th hour as 703. But doing that seems like BS to me. If we assume the CARS are written with safety as top priority, is it more safe to go to your 15th hour with 9 people on board the metro instead of 10? I'm sure TC will have no clear answer to this as it isn't written explicitly and is open to interpretation....ask 3 people and get 3 answers. The right thing for a company to do would be to err on the side of safety and on a day when a crew is flying 703 AND 704 limit the day to 14 hours regardless of what is being flown in the 15th hour.......but we all know what happens when there's a trip needing to get done!!

[Ruffo]

This particular thing came up a few years ago at Skyward...they used to do it on sched. Transport found out about it, their impression at the time being that once you've been 704 you have to finish the day as 704...then again, they often come up with different interpretations as well depending on who you talk to and when, so...probably just grey.

[CD]

CBA Policy Letter 141 - Operation of the same aircraft under multiple Part VII subparts of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) by operators who hold Air Operator Certificates (AOCs)

[TR]

Goes to show that you should never question the knowledge (or the authority) of management.

They are very smart people.

[LastSamurai]

We talked like old buddies me and the transport guy..we laughed we cried, I narced 47 pilots for right bases, sunglasses violations, Gerber/ Leatherman misconduct and one guy for saying "roger" too much and general crimes against aviation and he said he would get on the shit asap and then he said "hey, arent you ...."...then I hung up

ROTFLMAO!!!

This little rant is by far the funniest thing I have ever read on these threads...nice work and thanks for the laughs CSJ

LS

[snoopy]

Ah yes... the fine print...

from: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... y/menu.htm which is the home page for said policy letter:

These Policy Letters have been prepared as staff instructions for Transport Canada Inspectors. The issues dealt with in these Policy Letters are not meant to be regulatory in nature although they may deal with regulatory matters. Although they do not directly affect Industry, they are posted on the Web and available to the public for information purposes. Where the information affects Industry, an accompanying Commercial & Business Aviation Advisory Circular is also issued.

CARS references. Always ask for CARS references. If none are available, then somebody needs to begin the CARAC process. There are many reasons why policy is not law, but the process to enable new laws is lengthy and Transport often attempts to bypass the proper legal process.

Always always read the fine print and when in doubt talk to your lawyer...

Cheers,
Snoopy

[ei ei owe]

We talked like old buddies me and the transport guy..we laughed we cried, I narced 47 pilots for right bases, sunglasses violations, Gerber/ Leatherman misconduct and one guy for saying "roger" too much and general crimes against aviation and he said he would get on the shit asap and then he said "hey, arent you ...."...then I hung up

What, you didn't ask him how his computer ran flight sim 10? Did you compare blowup dolls? Why complain about Roger? That's affirmative action in the cockpit. You demand something, the other guys Rogers you back. Right?

So I guess it's settled then. In the 14th hour you can get back with 9 or less souls as long as you won't reach 8 hours of flight time for the day. I can't see too many instances where a 15 hour day affords a pilot LESS than 8 hours flight time but maybe I'm working too much for too little.

[LastSamurai]

So I guess it's settled then. In the 14th hour you can get back with 9 or less souls as long as you won't reach 8 hours of flight time for the day. I can't see too many instances where a 15 hour day affords a pilot LESS than 8 hours flight time but maybe I'm working too much for too little.

WRONG

You can fly more than 8 hours on a 15 hour duty day, however, in doing so you must add an hour to your rest time (9 total...for the math deficient).

LS

[ei ei owe]

this guy was apparently rogering himself and I dont mean sexually:)..and that...is too much roger. check?

Self rogering? Maybe stemming from an insecurity?

[pa31guy]

just came across this notice and i was under the impression you needed to get prior notice at the begining of the day that you were going to operate under this ops spec.

[Dockjock]

There are so many holes in the CARs you could drive an overloaded navajo through them. The bottom line, as Mark Tayfel recently proved, is that you can do whatever the eff you want just a) don't get caught and b) definitely don't crash. After that your company is cut loose and it's all on you bra...

[mbav8r]

Quoted from policy letter 141

When the flight time limits of the most restrictive subpart have been reached, operations may continue under a less restrictive subpart. For example, if a pilot operating an aircraft under CAR 704 and 703 reaches the limit of forty (40) hours of flight time during a seven (7) day period, he may continue to fly a further twenty (20) hours in CAR 703 or CAR 702 operations. The flight and duty time and rest period associated with a particular flight or series of flights shall be in accordance with the subpart under which the flight was operated.

The applicable time free from duty requirements pertaining to CAR 704 or CAR 702/703 shall be completed prior to commencing operations in the other subpart.

If you read the last sentence it seems clear to me that you cannot switch during the day, you need to get the appropriate rest before hand

[Tube Driver]

Very good answers, but I believe you must (should) address the matter of 702/703/704/604 duty time switching operations in your Operations Manual. Once again this more than likely depends on your region and your POI. However if the issue is not addressed in your Ops Manual, you may get a nasty surprise at audit time. Many operators now use duty time check sheets which the pilot and the flight and flight follower sign indicating that they are aware of the change and that the more restrictive of the rest periods has been complied with. This is often attached to theflight paperwork and thus is kept on record for at least 6 months. This check sheet both ensures that the pilot (person accepting duty) and the dispatcher (person asigning duty) are aware of the rest requirements, as well as isolating the company itself from direct responsibility.(CYA)
So basically my take on the situation is that you can start a day 703 and switch to 704 no problem. If you start a day 704 and want to switch to 703, no chance. You must adhere to the more restrictive of the two duty time restrictions, therefore you can fly the 703 machine but must do so under 704 duty restrictions. This also applies to a person who has been flying 703 for a period of time who wishes to switch to 704. The 704 time requirements free from duty must be adhered to.

[The Dark Side]

From what I understood of the TCese when I asked in the Pac region the following applied;

You can mix subparts however you should(shall) be doing so under the authority of your ops manual.

When you do this you are restricted to the most stringent duty and rest rules you flew under for the day.

This then also spills over to your 7 day totals (40 for 704 instead of 60 for 703) and others - if you are using the Ops Specs for increased duty and flight times under 703 that are not approved under 704 you are "fatigued" and can not do the flight. You can work the max under 704 and then switch to 703 and max out under 703 but if you plan on working 704 again you must meet all the duty and rest requirements of 704.

Thoughts?

[Tube Driver]

Essentially that is what I said in my last post. so we seem to have reached a consensus.

[ei ei owe]

so we seem to have reached a consensus.

Glad to see after a year and a half.

Hey, where's S&Juicy anyway?

[just curious]

I narced 47 pilots for right bases, sunglasses violations, Gerber/ Leatherman misconduct and one guy for saying "roger" too much

We have an Ops Spec for the Leatherman.