Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:55 pm

bbb, what was Jim Dow's position on this, have you talked to him?

I would love to know because I tried to discuss some FTU problems with him and the results were being met with arrogance only exceeded by his ignorance.

How do these creatures manage to get so much power?

If you do not wish to become a target for that bunch of thugs e-mail me.

.@..org

. .

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:31 pm

As for someone else's comment on here about why wouldn't we all be able to do this since it cost you $20,000 for your commercial, and we would get our fees topping $10,000 back from one or two students, GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE!!!!

I agree and understand. What I meant really was, if a school were to have to pay this (A FTU), like the small schools that its really going to hit, if it meant a small school raising the aircraft/instructor rates to compensate...I would rather pay that extra money for the rental to a small school (the ones Ive always liked..and yeah Ive trained at big schools too) then to go to a big school in a big city, pay an arm and a leg regardless.

I hope these smaller schools do this. Raise the rates....paying a extra for great, friendly service while training sure beats some of the big schools around. Sorry if the first post sounded alittle ignorant...I should have clarified.

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:37 am

So I guess no one knows how this affects students who are being freelanced? Any Takers? Bueller, Bueller?

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:11 am

One of the "benefits" to the student that the PCCA listed was that students would have access to their transcripts for 25 years. Pilot's transcripts (written exam and flight test results) are held by TC. Does anyone know how long TC holds these records? Does the student always have access to these records as long as they're held by TC?

bbb · Post by **bbb** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:55 pm

Pete- thanks for the clarification. I've been a mite upset this week.....
We are still trying to decide which way to proceed. If the smaller schools figure clientele will pay for it, they may go back to a 2-tier pricing system (we've always shied away from that - you should be getting as good a quality of instruction no matter what level of training you're at) to recoup.
Dangerous - TC has switched to a "paperless" system. All those old priceless documents are now at best in a warehouse, at worst-shredded. When we restored a 1938 Aeronca Chief, the file at TC contained all the original documents back to that time - what a great history! to ask for that same information now, you'd get a summary. Short answer- they're supposed to, but good luck to you. Certainly a summary, but details? highly unlikely.
Niss - VERY SORE SPOT the Ont gov didn't know such a thing existed, and publicly said they wished they'd never heard of it. As of now, no way to enforce, track, charge, etc. In effect, the FTU who has to put out time, $$, effort in appeasing all these beaurocrats gets penalized, while Joe Blow pays nothing (insurance, fees, paperwork, etc) and carries on. Freelancers were frowned on by most FTUs before - from the tone in the room when this was brought up several times, with no clarification or hope of such, freelances had better be careful around Ont airports- sounds like a lot of FTU would like them gone.
Cat- thanks, Dow was his usual useless self - our CFI (a career instructor, former Forces guy) put 2 and 2 together - Dow's a product and promoter of the college system, this latest thing plays right into his hand, but makes it look like it's not (for a change) TC screwing the schools.

Unfortunately, unless there's an Act of Parliment, or several of the "minister's authorized changes" like they're talking about for which training is covered, we're all out of luck.

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:51 pm

bbb wrote:TC has switched to a "paperless" system. All those old priceless documents are now at best in a warehouse, at worst-shredded.

Fair enough, but they must keep electronic records for a certain period of time. Anyone know?

Dominic220 · Post by **Dominic220** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:07 pm

"when you have massive schools in TO full of top guns who train because they can afford that"

Just because you can afford something, doesn't mean you know how to use it/be good at it.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:02 am

Well clunkster.

I was going to offer my help, but I think in your current mood, you would find my specific wordsmithing skill set to be both obtusive and unessarily duplicative, and if I have been told once, I have been told a million times, dont exaggerate.

Seriously, this is a good time for all those on Avcanada who have trained in Ontario to write their member of the legislature. Otherwise it is going to be the approved schools vs. the unapproved schools, and the government is going to default to the approved schools as they will ignore the issue of training, and instead, promote the financial safety...we are after all, a socialist country (even though we live next to the USA and the kingdom of Alberta). If pilots, and ames (you will be next) do nothing, this will come about. On the other hand, for the few minutes it takes to send an email, the message might just come across.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:27 am

Clunk:

" I think questions have to be asked to the Minister of Transport about Mr Dows total silence on this as well. "

Jim Dow is silent because he has something you don't.

He is in a position of power with zero need for accountability and he has no need to even acknowlege you are alive let alone have any rights under the system he controls.

In other words they do what ever is in their own personal best intrest.

Here is a puzzle for you.

When you retire will you be able to double dip like these creatures do?

When Dow retires guess where he will go to collect on favours owed?

Cat

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:13 pm

Are there flight schools in Ontario that you can receive money from OSAP to attend?

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:23 pm

Golden Flyer wrote:Are there flight schools in Ontario that you can receive money from OSAP to attend?

check http://osap.gov.on.ca/eng/eng_osap_main.html

You can get OSAP in Ontario to go to government subsidized programs such as (sault,Confederation,Seneca) but that' about it ...

I know few people who applied for OSAP when they were taking flight training at Waterloo/Wellington flight center,but they got less than 20 % of the cost of the training so they turned it down !!! Actually one of them was told that they would loan him money to get his Forklift certificate in instead !!!!

So short answer to your question is NO

Adam

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:07 pm

Golden Flyer wrote:Are there flight schools in Ontario that you can receive money from OSAP to attend?

If I understand correctly, the only way you can get OSAP is if your pursuing your flight training as a part of a college course.

When I looked into applying for OSAP (a few years ago now), I was told that they'd only look at the costs of going to college - not flight training. Things may have changed since then, but what I was told was that all other things being equal (eligibility and such), an OSAP applicant from an aviation program would get the same size loan/grant as an applicant taking basket weaving.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:37 pm

Clunk Driver

Maybe start another post asking for help (In the General comments.and the others if you can do that. Explain the situation again , maybe put up email addresses and ask everyone to help out by writing.

Its not like most of us dont have a few minutes to do something positive for the industry.

Good Luck.
If it starts in Ontario the rest of the provinces will follow like good sheep, so maybe the FTU's in the other provinces should be sitting up and taking notice also.

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:50 pm

Well, if the government is starting to put a foot in flight schools they should start having funds available as well...

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:25 am

costermonger wrote:If I understand correctly, the only way you can get OSAP is if your pursuing your flight training as a part of a college course.

.... and even then it's not worth it. I only got $1685, apparently enough to live on for the year

Now I'm stuck with the worst bureaucratic nightmare in trying to pay off the thing. In each payment I send four times the minimum amount, and all I ever get is administrative policy shoved in my face, that does not make sense to any sane person.

So I went away for a while, and wanted to pay in advance. Like anyone concerned by being linked to the ball and chain of this system, I called and asked one of their suberbly gifted agents if this would be ok. He explained the details in the usual authoritative, condescending manner, and I was told that it would be fine. So I went ahead and paid.
Several months later I find that I can't get any sort of credit, because apparently I have numerous reports of being in arrears. I am over $1000 ahead in my payments, and those assholes reported me.

To deal with this, I ended up talking to this type of person: "an official who works by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment." (ref: dictionary.com: bureaucrat).

Moral of the story: STAY AWAY. IT IS NOT WORTH IT.

I apologize for hijacking this thread. It was supposed to be a very short rant.

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:02 am

Northern Skies, were you woking at the time you applied for OSAP? I guess it depends on how much money you had aside, the number of hours you work per week and the amount you were receiving per hr. Of course, your parents income as well.

jjal · Post by **jjal** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:19 am

Since flight training units and their operation are Federally regulated, inspected, certified, etc., and their services are directed at training persons towards achieving a Federal (or international!) accreditation, I can't understand what recourse the provincial government would have if, say, my little FTU with a 152 and a 172 just refused to be party to such nonsense and kept offering the training we have for years, which includes CPL.

This sort of garbage is Ultra Vires!!!

Does anyone know the repercussions I would face (or what I would be challenged with) by not registering for this ridiculous program?

Clunckdriver - please keep us posted in this thread as it interests many and your efforts are appreciated.

jjal

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:33 am

Lead Sled: are COPA and ATAC involved in this yet, or are they snoozing through it?

Needless to say, the small FTU's in Ontario need to get organized to fight this latest bizarreness from the government.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:40 am

Does this mean that there will be many flight instructor jobs lost?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:47 am

No need to panic (unless you get off on it).

We will quash this latest idiocy from our dully elected officials and their chubby, out-of-control bureaucrats - it is our responsibility as citizens to do so.

I remember hearing somewhere that government is like genital herpes - you can't get rid of it, and all it's ever going to do is cause you trouble.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:54 am

I suspect a lot of the FTU's in Ontario haven't heard a word about this, despite the drastic consequences of it.

Please let me know what I can do to help. I have nearly unlimited bandwidth (T3).

We need to inform everyone affected, and organize them to fight this. I can't believe COPA would bail on something as relevant and important as this, but I've seen some pretty strange things from them.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:02 pm

Just got an email response back from COPA. Sure enough, their response on this subject was "it's not our problem - we don't care"

Looks like we're going this one alone.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:10 pm

Hedley.

Why not post their response, or very close to verbatim.If its close to what you said, I for one, will cancel my membership, and I hope others will too.
Send a note to COPA, why you are cancelling.
Tell them when they change their priorities to helping out people instead of being an insurance sales organization you (we) will rejoin.
Maybe they will listen.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:57 pm

Golden Flyer wrote:Northern Skies, were you woking at the time you applied for OSAP? I guess it depends on how much money you had aside, the number of hours you work per week and the amount you were receiving per hr. Of course, your parents income as well.

You seem to be confused...... I'm not applying. I'm long out of school and am paying it off. I'm OVER-paying....... and there is some sort of problem with that.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:57 pm

Golden Flyer wrote:Northern Skies, were you woking at the time you applied for OSAP? I guess it depends on how much money you had aside, the number of hours you work per week and the amount you were receiving per hr. Of course, your parents income as well.

You seem to be confused...... I'm not applying. I'm long out of school and am paying it off. I'm OVER-paying....... and there is some sort of problem with that.