Cross Winds....are they a mystery?

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:50 pm

Wow...I guess things have changed.

I did my PPL in 87 and got my CPL in 93. Along the way I had a few different instructors...two of whom would always have me request the runway with the biggest x-wind just for practice. It was great training and helped me out with my first job...on a SuperCub.

As for the RJ (my current ride); it lands just fine in a x-wind. The bigger problem comes during the roll out when people have a tendency to release the controls. Being a swept wing aircraft the RJ has a real tendency to lift the upwind wing.

l_reason · Post by **l_reason** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:00 pm

I really didn’t think the school I went to at CYGK was anything special, until years later. I read all this crap about schools NOT teaching or allowing students to practice a vital and mandatory skill. The ability to do a crosswind landing is important for the students safety. I was taught buy a junior instructor that took me out in 15KT direct X-winds and made me do it. Then let me go SOLO to practice in the same wind conditions. CYGK still had 3 strips then so it wasn’t due to necessity other then wanting to make safe pilots.

If you are the CFI at a school that has a 5knot max X-wind rule. Keep telling them its for their benefit

. Shame on you!

If you a student at a school with that rule, start shopping for a new school.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:15 pm

" If you are a student at a school with that rule, start shopping for a new school. "

And there was the best comment made in this thread.

niwre · Post by **niwre** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:04 am

xwinds are a touchy subject. When I did my training at the Winnipeg Flying Club I found training to be adequate for xwinds. Mind you in St. Andrews you never have a bad xwind day (and challenge anyone who says there is... been there done that got the picture...). Most school aside from "these top colleges" will train and allow the student to go solo upto the max demonstrated xwind component or where ever the instructor deems the student can handle. Other than that its their call.

Besides flying an approach to a runway the winds 50' off in 22kts is just as good as a 90' kt wind. The prairies also have tame winds compared to the coast or the rest of the country for that matter. Again did all of my training there and most of my flying I feel I have an decent understanding of what prairie winds are like.

Now moving to the 'Rock' I almost filled my shorts when I hear what the winds are like and had to brush up on my xwinds because there is almost always a 5kt xwind. Damn these guys and gals would never fly then weather aside if the school said 5kt max.

It also a demonstrated component. Average pilot average skills average conditions.... Does not mean that there are a few below and above pilots out there. If you dont feel comfortable flying in those winds dont. There is nothing wrong with you honestly. I know my limits and stick to them. Know yours and stick to them dont try and fly 20kt xwinds to try and be a hero if you dont feel comfortable you will land safely. Ive heard and read about too many off runway landings or people skidding off the runway because they "thought" they could handle the winds. There may be other things that you can handle better than a pilot who could fly a 30+kt xwinds.

your thoughts

Rudderless · Post by **Rudderless** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:51 pm

Cat Driver wrote - "Why would it not be reasonable to assume that anyone with a pilot license has been taught how to correct for a X/wind before they are given a pilot license? I'm God Dammed if I would want any pilot teaching him / herself how to land in a X/wind in any airplane I own."

Of course not. Me too. I was making the assumption that the person had been "taught" and had passed a solo check out, flight test etc. Some people are afraid of crosswinds. Recent practice is really important, and if someone is really wobbly in crosswind conditions and can't go out on their own, they should get more dual instruction or stay at home on windy days.

Rudderless · Post by **Rudderless** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:52 pm

Cat Driver wrote - "Why would it not be reasonable to assume that anyone with a pilot license has been taught how to correct for a X/wind before they are given a pilot license? I'm God Dammed if I would want any pilot teaching him / herself how to land in a X/wind in any airplane I own."

Of course not. Me too. I was making the assumption that the person had been "taught" and had passed a solo check out, flight test etc. Some people are afraid of crosswinds. Recent practice is really important, and if someone is really wobbly in crosswind conditions and can't go out on their own, they should get more dual instruction or stay at home on windy days.

Snowroller · Post by **Snowroller** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:00 pm

Cross wind landings & take offs are fun

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:46 pm

Having 5 kts. as a rule sounds weird. It would be a good idea if ones instructor limited he/she to what they feel is reasonable based upon his/her performances.

youngflier · Post by **youngflier** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:29 am

if anybody is scared of landing in x-winds just fly floats and land on wide open lakes

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:58 pm

Does anyone out there have insight into what the standards/ limitations on crosswinds are for schools in the States?

electraguy · Post by **electraguy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:13 pm

Hey gang!

No real mystery to cross wind if your are taught properly and your instructor gets you to do them frequently. Out here in alberta, crosswinds at alot of the smaller airports is just common dog.As for Cat;s comments about the tail dragger, I totally agree everyone should get a few hours on one. Those rudder pedals are there for a reason, and the problem with alot of the trycylce high wings is that in a good crosswind ya simply run out of rudder deflection. The tail dragger once learned has plenty of rudder and if you can land that in a good crosswind, anything else should be a piece of cake. I couls ee the 5 knot crosswind rule for "new" students but if your ready to fly cross countrys, you better be trained on crosswinds. Alot of these "college/university" flight programs have very restrictive rules. I still think alot of them are a big cash grab, you can find alot of better instructors at some of the better flight schools. Just my opinion. Go play in a X wind!!!

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:51 pm

Hedley... What light trainer has a demonstrated cross-wind of more than 15 knots?

the flying dutchman · Post by **the flying dutchman** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:55 pm

Diamond Eclipse (DA20-C1) has a demonstrated X-wind of 20 knots. No problem landing with those winds.

The Flying Dutchman

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:57 pm

I think that the issue probably isn't a steady crosswind, where the limit is how low your wing can go; but rather gusting conditions, where 8g15 might be 25% below the max demonstrated, but in practice is too dynamic to make for nice, boring short finals.

nyco · Post by **nyco** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:12 pm

Blue Side Down wrote:Does anyone out there have insight into what the standards/ limitations on crosswinds are for schools in the States?

Dunno what it is now a days, but when i was there (2000), doing my training in Florida, there was no such things as Xwind limitations excepts the POH ones.

I don't get these Xwind limitations on training, on a solo I guess you wanna make it safe, but with an instructor, I mean come on, that's exactly when the fun kicks in.............

buck82 · Post by **buck82** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:23 pm

.... I would think the limit should be when you get your foot all the way to the floor and your rudder and can't keep the plane in line with the runway/landing zone. During the flair, If executed properly, the wing should never get so low as to be hitting the ground first.

leftcoaster · Post by **leftcoaster** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:57 am

[quote="Hedley"]I am sure that many people in white shirts with gold bars on their shoulder will disagree, but ...

What the hell is your problem with Airline Pilots Hedley. Its just another pilot job. Do ya really think only the worst Pilots go to the airline jobs?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:05 am

Reaching the travel limits of the rudder does not put you at the limits of the amount of X/wind you can land an airplane in.

What do you do when you find yourself with a X/wind at your airport of destination that is beyond the demonstrated X/wind limits and you have no alternate left?

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:54 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Reaching the travel limits of the rudder does not put you at the limits of the amount of X/wind you can land an airplane in.

Airshow pilots don't even get close to full deflection on a knife-edge pass, and for good reason. I think that the same generally should apply here. Sometimes the limits on an airplane come in the form of sound judgement.

What do you do when you find yourself with a X/wind at your airport of destination that is beyond the demonstrated X/wind limits and you have no alternate left?

Lets change this from 'beyond the demonstrated limit' to 'beyond pilot's comfort'. It's a lot cheaper to fly buck up and fly to another field than to bend an airplane and deal with the insurance repercussions. Besides, aren't people always crabbing about pilots who 'push it' or otherwise try to be heroes around here?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:22 pm

Blue Side Down:

Can we deal with a situation that will happen from time to time flying long cross countries?

" What do you do when you find yourself with a X/wind at your airport of destination that is beyond the demonstrated X/wind limits and you have no alternate left? "

There will be times when you arrive at your destination and find the only runway has a wind that is beyond the demonstrated X/wind component for the airplane you are flying.

What I am driving at is you can land in a X/wind that is really beyond the demonstrated X/wind and beyond the full aileron and rudder limits.

These types of situations are not a big deal as long as you are able to use not only the full control inputs but inertia to touch down aligned with the landing path and no sideways drift.

Hell on one of our last ferry flights we arrived in Alexandria Egypt only to find the wind had suddenly increased and was 90 degrees off the runway at 40 knots....it was a no brainer as we train for and are able to land safely when these problems arise.

Once again, full control limits are not the limiting factor in dealing with a X/wind that is outside the demonstrated limits.

Rudderless · Post by **Rudderless** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:20 pm

Cat Driver - you said your instructors didn't like your Grumman Cheetah -why was that? I did my commercial licence (except the spins) on the AA5A, I don't recall crosswinds being a particular problem in it. It was a great cross country machine, a bit faster than the other aircraft available at the time. Also you could get a really good landing out of it without trying too hard. In fact, in a crosswind, you probably had better visibility out the front of it than in a Cessna. As long as you didn't touch down nosewheel first....................

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:40 pm

Rudderless, it all started with a flight instructor at another school telling my instructors that a Cheetah can get into an unrecoverable flat spin......I tried to explain to them that it was the GA Yankee that had had some spin problems...anyhow once they got into their heads that the Cheetah was no good the next things that they did not like was it was hard to slow down on final and it took a lot of runway to land...then one of them got it porporsing after landing on the nose wheel and I finally relented and told them they did not have to fly it.

Eventually like the Cub I sold it.

Personally I think the Cheetah / Tiger is a far better airplane than any of the Cessnas in most every respect.

By the way a Cheetah ? Tiger can not be spun if it is loaded in the proper C of G. I could not get mine to spin solo that is for sure.

Cat

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:48 pm

" What do you do when you find yourself with a X/wind at your airport of destination that is beyond the demonstrated X/wind limits and you have no alternate left? "

Carry some extra speed and fly it on.

Rudderless · Post by **Rudderless** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:10 pm

I have to agree about the Cheetah. It;s like a sports car vs a K Car (for those old enough to remember those). Don't know how many are left. Like the Beech 95 Travelair - great multi engine trainer. Not a plastic airplane. Where are all these classic airpanes going?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 pm

" Carry some extra speed and fly it on. "

That is a rather simplistic answer mcrit, can you outline for me how you ensure the airplane contacts the runway aligned with the runway center line and no drift at touch down? Or do you just fly it on sideways at high speed and hang on for the ride?

That last blurb is about as vague as this question you asked in another thread.

" So you've made it clear that you think any sort of extra throttle movement is bad for an engine, what is your opinion when it comes to running and engine that is showing little to no oil pressure? "

I am well aware of how you feel personally about me, however you claimed to be a class 1 instructor as I recall and I am not in that league at all so why can't you teach me how you do these things?

Cross Winds....are they a mystery?

no mystery