Porter's USA Application stalled

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:50 pm

Nightflight you got it right.

And Stolport? Who owns Stolport? The same family that owns Trans Capital Air (Hangar 1) and used to operate City Express. And guess where all the Jazz ground equipment is parked on the island? On the Stolport property. And who is waiting for Jazz to come back to the island? Not Stolport????

Who operated Esso on the island before Deluce took it over recently? Stolport.....

Before Deluce was there, gentlemen, Victor Pappalardo was, and is still there.

Different names, same names, but it's the same tired old BS fighting for the same piece of the sunken barge err I mean airport.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:50 pm

You guys are good for a laugh, i'll give you that. If there is so much money behind Porter then why are you scarred of a little competition? I mean what do you have to worry about?? .. Clapped out Dash and RJ's what is all the fuss?

The Deluces aren't in the business for the long term fella's ... they don't make or buy and hold on to. They make, buy and sell at the first whiff of cold hard cash and then they run (not walk) all the way to the bank. Im not saying they're dumb people, but I am saying that they are not your friend and not there for you. So when you tell me how nice they are and there vision for the future and blah blah blah ... that's the same rally message every airline owner gives the troops.

AC/Jazz ... same deal ... but I do feel secure, as secure as you can be in the airline industry anyway. Getting a little off the point which is YTZ.

I don't believe the point about slots .. in and out of YTZ .. Im not going to waste a lot of time looking for the sake of a thread but if that was true how is it explained that other operators that don't hold "half" the slots that AC/Jazz do in YYZ even get denied space in YTZ? How is Porter going to operate to US destinations without Custom services at the island? Since that was an excuse that was given to an American carrier when they applied to operate in YTZ. What im getting at is ... things are just not adding up with what your saying. Let me guess .. the Deluces are going to set up and pay for Canada Customs, along with a bridge, and maybe a new house for David Miller while he's at it?

Just a thought ... .

Cheers,

Loc

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:22 pm

Localizer wrote:
I don't believe the point about slots .. in and out of YTZ .. Im not going to waste a lot of time looking for the sake of a thread...

That's too bad, because if you did your homework, you'd realize that Whilpline, Rockie, Myself and others have already answered all of your inane questions on this thread. Enough said.

...as for customs and US destinations. Stay tuned, the plans are afoot.

...and for the record, Porter is not 'scarred' of competition, which explains why we don't need to match AC and WJs predatory pricing on the YOW and YUL flights lately.
Somehow more and more people seem to want to spend a few bucks more to fly with us... go figure.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:25 pm

I can't be bothered searching on your behalf for the links to CTA rulings and the business plan for the TPA and Porter Airlines either Loc. Just wait and see how it all turns out I guess.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:36 pm

Localizer wrote:Let me guess .. the Deluces are going to set up and pay for Canada Customs, along with a bridge, and maybe a new house for David Miller while he's at it?

I forgot to mention, if you did a little research you would discover the following:

Pay for Canada Customs --->If necessary, US Customs and immigration too

Pay for a bridge----->That was the plan until Miller crawled out of the swamp.

Buy Miller a house--->Not before the next Ice Age.

QBalls · Post by **QBalls** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:02 pm

Localizer wrote:You guys are good for a laugh, i'll give you that. If there is so much money behind Porter then why are you scarred of a little competition?

Well I wasn't going to bring it up but your post is begging for it. Localizer, I gather you are with Jazz and if not you certainly seem to be a staunch supporter - not that there is anything wrong with that. If it is us that is so afraid of a little competetion why was it a Jazz crew that that gave us the birdie in CYOW as they taxied by back in September during one of our training flights. Quite shocking actually and very unprofessional I might add. Interesting don't you think?

Now of course I'm not painting everyone with the same brush and please know that many of my friends are with Jazz. We are after all just a bunch of guys and gals that like to take to the skies.

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yyzdub · Post by **yyzdub** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:24 am

When will people realise that Aviation is a business like any other... what difference does it make if someone is out for a quick buck, has side deals, and so on... when it comes down to it an airline isn't a charity, it's not into making friends, it's there for one reason and one reason only to make money.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:29 am

Pointyertoes .. Am I just suppose to take your "word" for it, and those of the others? Where did you come across this info? Is it what you "heard" or does it hold water with something to back it up? I waste enough time on here that I can't be bothered wasting more just to post something that isn't going to make a difference in the morning.

Like Qballs said ... All of us are just guys/gals that love being in the air, and I don't honestly want to see Porter off the face of the planet. I want us all to have jobs, get a decent wage, and do what we love to do.

I just don't like monopoly's .. and lets get honest here. You can't look at the situation of the island and say thats not a monopoly. It caters a different type of passenger than YYZ, and for that a different market. But anyone should have the ablilty to serve that market if they choose. (and im not only talking about AC/Jazz) And that isn't happening .. the fact is the island is deciding who fly's. I wanna say persuaded .. but i'll hold those comments. (for now)

Cheers,

Loc

stupido · Post by **stupido** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:24 am

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes .. Am I just suppose to take your "word" for it, and those of the others? Where did you come across this info? Is it what you "heard" or does it hold water with something to back it up? I waste enough time on here that I can't be bothered wasting more just to post something that isn't going to make a difference in the morning.

Like Qballs said ... All of us are just guys/gals that love being in the air, and I don't honestly want to see Porter off the face of the planet. I want us all to have jobs, get a decent wage, and do what we love to do.

I just don't like monopoly's .. and lets get honest here. You can't look at the situation of the island and say thats not a monopoly. It caters a different type of passenger than YYZ, and for that a different market. But anyone should have the ablilty to serve that market if they choose. (and im not only talking about AC/Jazz) And that isn't happening .. the fact is the island is deciding who fly's. I wanna say persuaded .. but i'll hold those comments. (for now)

Cheers,

Loc

My dear LOC...Let's get honest.
If you are afraid of something you have an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger (PORTER). Greed most often begins with the fear of not having enough or of not being important (YOU before JAZZ probably Northern Canada). Then when you accumulate wealth (YOU with JAZZ), you become obsessed with protecting what you have. Fear is not created by a lack of things; it is created by how you think. If you have the habit (PORTER and who knows...) of worrying, it doesn't matter who you are, what you have, or what you do, you will worry because that is the habit of your mind. This one is one of the biggest causes of disease and unhappiness.
AND HONESTLY I would not like to see you there.
RELAX and you will face any situation without fear and to live your live without worry.
You fly for JAZZ we will continue to enjoy PORTER and we will see...stay tuned.

Stupido

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:35 pm

Localizer wrote:You can't look at the situation of the island and say thats not a monopoly. It caters a different type of passenger than YYZ, and for that a different market. But anyone should have the ablilty to serve that market if they choose.

As I mentioned before a couple of times, the Canadian Transportation Agency doesn't agree with you and has already made a ruling in favour of Robert Deluce's submission that YTZ and YYZ serve the same market. Porter owns their slots fair and square. But it's not a monopoly because they don't own all the slots, just most of them.

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:44 pm

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes .. Am I just suppose to take your "word" for it, and those of the others? Where did you come across this info? Is it what you "heard" or does it hold water with something to back it up?

Loc

As I've said... do your homework and you won't have to take anyone elses word for granted.
This 'info' is and has always been in the public domain for all curious pilots to see.
You're obviously too lazy to do your own research and that's unfortunate.
You have obviously chosen to believe either de-contextualized snippets of information you've come across, or the incoherent ramblings of co-workers who feel threatened by Porter.

So either come back with a decent and informed rebuttal or return to the AC/Jazz forum and complain about something else.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:18 pm

Stupido ...... Im still shaking my head about that last one.

Rockie ....... appeal

Pointyertoes ..... If you have so much time to do nothing productive then search the net for documents regarding this case .. please enlighten me. (with facts ... try a link or something like that)

Cheers,

Loc

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:38 am

Localizer

With all this talk of how unfair it is that Porter has the majority of slots off the Island, I have to ask, do you think if Porter were to close tomorrow that Jazz would increase their service at the TCCA?

Please think about it carefully considering Jazz's changing level of service there in the past ten years, including the last five since Deluce started this whole thing. Ask yourself why Jazz didn't act to develop and protect their market at the Island when the threat of Porter made itself known.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:48 am

The sticking point appears to be that TPA wants AC to sign a new operating agreement and AC won't - they felt theirs was still valid, a point on which the courts have so far disagreed with them. Presumably the conditions are more onerous. Does anyone have an idea what the difference between the old agreement and the new one is?

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:35 am

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes ..... If you have so much time to do nothing productive then search the net for documents regarding this case .. please enlighten me. (with facts ... try a link or something like that)

Cheers,

Loc

Much as I'd like to somehow link a year and a half worth of newspaper clippings and 'google alerts' on Porter and the TPA to this thread, I just don't have the technology or time.

But just for you Loc, a one time freebie (next time do your own homework):

I just finished reading todays Globe and Mail over my morning coffee.
In the business section you will find a small article about the TPA giving preliminary approval to US Airways for flights into the island.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... y/Business

How they go about securing the remaining slots and parking their airplanes is up to them.

That does not sound like a Porter/TPA monopoly collusion scheme to me.

This is the last time I'll hold your hand through a debate. If you want to argue, come back with your own facts, otherwise stop being such a simpleton agitator.

... and now I'm off to do something 'productive', like fly an airplane... maybe I'll bike to work and be even more productive...

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:50 am

EI-EIO wrote: Does anyone have an idea what the difference between the old agreement and the new one is?

The expiry date

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:30 pm

Pointyertoes,

I do like to do my own "homework" and get to know a bit about the subject I am going to debate. I also like to wait and let the other person in the debate talk until they are content ... just so I can see how full of shit they are. Globe and Mail eh? .. Were you looking for the comics section? .. maybe the puzzel page? And just happened to stumble onto a headline and now your up to date? This is what you bring me? .. A Globe and Mail report? A "Google Alert"? Another persons interpretation of what they believe to be the truth? That is no different then you telling me what you think you believe to be true?! Your lack of technology? How about you don't grasp the technology you have, and therefore lack the ability to get something credible such as the court records that are available to the public .. online. Maybe you should read your user manual with that coffee instead.

As I said ... I like to see how full of shit some people are. Enjoy that coffee tomorrow morning sunshine.

Cheers,

Loc

stupido · Post by **stupido** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:35 am

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes,

I do like to do my own "homework" and get to know a bit about the subject I am going to debate. I also like to wait and let the other person in the debate talk until they are content ... just so I can see how full of shit they are. Globe and Mail eh? .. Were you looking for the comics section? .. maybe the puzzel page? And just happened to stumble onto a headline and now your up to date? This is what you bring me? .. A Globe and Mail report? A "Google Alert"? Another persons interpretation of what they believe to be the truth? That is no different then you telling me what you think you believe to be true?! Your lack of technology? How about you don't grasp the technology you have, and therefore lack the ability to get something credible such as the court records that are available to the public .. online. Maybe you should read your user manual with that coffee instead.

As I said ... I like to see how full of shit some people are. Enjoy that coffee tomorrow morning sunshine.

Cheers,

Loc

Like I said...My dear LOC,

Aggression can create all kinds of problems in your life. It is big emotion with destructive behaviors added to it. Those destructive behaviors can be directed toward yourself, your flying mates, other people, or who knows... When you are scared, you can quickly move into fight profile. You don't even realize you are scared. It is just negative energy moving through certain parts of you body. Even for you my dear LOC saying "I'm scared" can be helpful. I can understand that and it is human. It is so simple to express the emotion, instead of the destructive behavior. Simple say "I feel scared ..." somebody can help you and can prevent acts of aggression. It is so simple.
Hmmmm...coffee time.

Stupido

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:06 am

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes,

I do like to do my own "homework" and get to know a bit about the subject I am going to debate. I also like to wait and let the other person in the debate talk until they are content ... just so I can see how full of shit they are. Globe and Mail eh? .. Were you looking for the comics section? .. maybe the puzzel page? And just happened to stumble onto a headline and now your up to date? This is what you bring me? .. A Globe and Mail report? A "Google Alert"? Another persons interpretation of what they believe to be the truth? That is no different then you telling me what you think you believe to be true?! Your lack of technology? How about you don't grasp the technology you have, and therefore lack the ability to get something credible such as the court records that are available to the public .. online. Maybe you should read your user manual with that coffee instead.

As I said ... I like to see how full of shit some people are. Enjoy that coffee tomorrow morning sunshine.

Cheers,

Loc

I read the article in question too and it does factually contradict your claim that Porter has a monopoly on the Island and no one else can serve the market. Insulting the intelligence of someone who disagrees with you, and presents current and relevant facts in support of his argument doesn't reflect well on you. A reasoned and calm argument from your side, even if it might be wrong, gains more respect than an emotional tirade.

You might have missed my earlier post Localizer, but I asked a couple of questions that I'm curious to hear your opinion on.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:27 am

Having reliable, well capitalized air service out of Toronto Island is not good for AC. AC has played it well from the start. Their hub is Pearson. Maintaining two airports is a cash drain.

The best scenario for AC is to see air service dry up on the island. The risk they took, and arguably had to for financial reasons, was to pull back service and eventually pull out.

Playing he said she said is looking backwards. Deluce has played this one well. He will become a serious thorn in AC's side as he scoops high yeild business traffic away from Pearson. He will. Carrier loyalties aside, he'll grow his business. And AC may very well find it cheaper to buy him out than to to watch their business market share erode over time, leading to the growth of Porter.

Either way, Deluce wins and AC pays. Smart man.

Toronto Island has always been a pain in the butt for AC.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:53 am

Stupido ... what kind of drugs does your psychiatrist have you on?

Rockie ... Current and relevant? ... I was looking for something a little more then just another persons take on the sitution. I wanted to know what he was basing all of his claim on .. and now I know. To answer your question? ... Once Porter is gone the island will be gone, and they will direct all traffic to Person. Simple as that .. and we all know it. As I said before .. I don't wanna see Porter gone (hard to believe I bet), but I do have friends working there and I want them to have long and happy careers. But if history repeats itself .. and usually it does .. we'll all be wearing the same uniform in the end.

Cheers,

Loc

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:02 am

Localizer wrote:Pointyertoes,

I do like to do my own "homework" and get to know a bit about the subject I am going to debate. I also like to wait and let the other person in the debate talk until they are content ... just so I can see how full of shit they are. Globe and Mail eh? .. Were you looking for the comics section? .. maybe the puzzel page? And just happened to stumble onto a headline and now your up to date? This is what you bring me? .. A Globe and Mail report? A "Google Alert"? Another persons interpretation of what they believe to be the truth?

I am the first person to admit that you cannot believe everything you read in the papers. Which is why I read a great deal from a variety of sources.
That obviously wouldn’t matter to you as you’ve made up your mind that everyone else is “full of shit”. Eloquently put.

In this case; however, I tossed you a bone. An article from the Globe and Mail business section (which is usually more accurate than a similar story in the front section because it dispenses with the political and/or human interest aspects of a story).

I get the feeling that it wouldn’t make the slightest difference if I Fedexed you court documents or phone tap transcripts.
You would still choose to remain deluded and hostile to anyone with a differing opinion… and still too lazy to post one outside source of information that might support your view.

If you choose to believe that Porter’s existence is a grand conspiracy, go right ahead… maybe I should have posted a link from the Weekly World News:

“Porter Airlines Hires Bat Boy and an Army of the Undead to Defend the Island Airport to the Death!!!”

…bet you’d eat that right up.

And by the way…

There is no truer indicator that a debate is over when one side resorts to open hostility and ad hominem attacks.

So if you have nothing to contribute here except bitter vitriolic comments, you’re better off returning to your AC/Jazz forum happyplace.

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:16 am

Localizer wrote:Stupido ... what kind of drugs does your psychiatrist have you on?

But if history repeats itself .. and usually it does .. we'll all be wearing the same uniform in the end.

Cheers,

Loc

Stupido's not on drugs. He's just a happy guy who's a pleasure to work with. I'm sure you wouldn't understand that given your work environment and your miserable demeanor. That's too bad, I feel sorry for you.

Oh, and I'll never go back to wearing a crappy AC issue polyester blend uniform, (pleated pants and all) after our tailored Italian suits.

...not to mention, I can't afford the pay cut.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:08 pm

Localizer wrote:Stupido ... what kind of drugs does your psychiatrist have you on?

Rockie ... Current and relevant? ... I was looking for something a little more then just another persons take on the sitution. I wanted to know what he was basing all of his claim on .. and now I know. To answer your question? ... Once Porter is gone the island will be gone, and they will direct all traffic to Person. Simple as that .. and we all know it. As I said before .. I don't wanna see Porter gone (hard to believe I bet), but I do have friends working there and I want them to have long and happy careers. But if history repeats itself .. and usually it does .. we'll all be wearing the same uniform in the end.

Cheers,

Loc

If the Globe and Mail (not one of my favourite papers by the way) says US Airways has been granted rights to fly into the Island, I believe them. It's not one person's take on any situation, just a fact that someone else has been granted rights to fly out of there. I don't see what you're arguing against with that.

As for my question, I don't think you understood it completely. Assuming the Island airport still existed after porter disappeared, do you think Jazz would ramp up their operations to fill the void or let their service wither away in favour of Pearson like they have done the last decade?

For what it's worth, I think you have a better than average chance of being right about the same uniforms in the end though.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:38 pm

Rockie ... I answered your question, maybe I wasn't clear enough about it. But what I was getting at is that .. If Porter went down .. I don't think AC/Jazz would operate there at all.

Pointyertoes ... funny how you keep telling me about my so called attacks and blah blah blah ... Aren't you doing the exact samething? So I guess that means ... your done with this topic? Or you're no better then me? You never asked for me to supply you with any supporting information? So why would I give you something you didn't ask for? About the uniform .... With your contradictive personality im glad you don't wanna wear a polyester suit.

I didn't say everyone is "full of shit" ... just you! Bat child? ... nice.

Cheers,

Loc