Death of Air Canada

[FamilyGuy]

Outsiders looking in, experts without a class to teach. Please, stick to what you KNOW, which is SFA. This is bigger and more complicated than any of us can imagine. Blame the govt if you must, they are easy targets!

[...]

I am Birddog said

....there are families (40K) at AC that still need to put food on their kitchen tables. I wish everyone would be a little sensitive to that fact.

Excuse me? What was that? What are you saying?

How about all the families and communities that have been "wiped-out” due to Government mismanagements? Mad Cow, SAR, Wheat Board and Kyoto?

No word of sympathy for them anywhere.

How about the ranchers in western Canada who cannot sell their cattle.

How about the farmers who have seen 5 years of drought and can't live off the land anymore.

What do you have to say to them?

Blaster, this is the wrong forum. We talk about airplanes and the people that earn a living being around them.

But if you want.....

What about the people those are still under persecution for voicing their political views on human rights and are imprisoned for it by a dictatorship regime?

The Armenian holocaust when the Turkish government did the same to them as the Germans to the Jews, but their voice was never heard because of the little influence Armenian’s have to bring this issue from the past to light.

How about the young girl prostitution in Thailand? Exploitation the children? It sickens me.

How about the readers here in Avcanada having to endure your posts??


What do you have to say to them?

[cyyz]

Blaster, this is the wrong forum. We talk about airplanes and the people that earn a living being around them.

But if you want........

What do you have to say to them?

Since I never got a reply to my Aeroflot comments in the other thread...

How can a first world country have its "National Air Carrier" go broke, while a 3rd world nation can keep theirs flying?

If A/C goes down as Thompson boy said it will screw Canada up for a period of time, _but_ I'd rather see it go under now instead of next year or 2.

This situation should never have occured, now we have to put up with it, and best to put the old horse down now and send him to the glue factory while the glue factory is willing to take him...

[...]

How can a first world country have its "National Air Carrier" go broke, while a 3rd world nation can keep theirs flying?

Have you ever seen the condition of the aircraft in these 3rd world countries and the qulifications of the flight deck crews?

You get what you pay for. Flying on the cheap, means get dead quick.

Roll the dice.

As far as AC 'going broke', don't you remember a while ago one national carrier being in the red and the other being in the black???!!! Then the 2 merged for reasons too many to list on here.

I better stop now before I get a headache.

[cyyz]

Have you ever seen the condition of the aircraft in these 3rd world countries and the qulifications of the flight deck crews?

You get what you pay for. Flying on the cheap, means get dead quick.

Roll the dice.

ROFL..

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/database.cgi

True Aeroflot has over 100 "accidents" with only 1 in a western world made a/c.

Air Canada has 6 accidents all made by western nations, seems like our pilots can't fly modern day birds.

127 accidents, we'll round to 10,000 deaths.. And they're still operating, rolling the dice or not, seems like they're making enough money to pay for all their downed aircrafts, to pay off all the victims, true an eastern settlement is probably the price tag of a grave while the lucky westerners sue for a couple hundred million per victim..

Air Canada with -150 deaths, 6 downed planes and it's broke..

I still don't understand how that can be humanly possible.

Mathematically speaking the Commies should have been broke decades ago, and atleast 10 times over.

Seems like the Canadian Government, Air Canada and their employees put themselves out of business...

[flaps10]

You guys think that if AC dies the Canadian Gov will allow foreign carriers to come in fill the void? I've heard talk of this before and IMO I think it's a pretty scary prospect for all of us, even if it's only a temporary fix until a Canadian operator can take over.

Also, what would happen to Jazz and third tier carriers like Georgian and CMA?

[cyyz]

This crappy gov't would bring in foreign carriers.. We'll be like the third world countries, but in a different boat. They can afford the planes, just don't have the crews.. We'll have crews but no planes for the locals. =(..

[KENNYR]

Nobody wants to see the demise of Air Canada. However the management at Air Canada must shoulder the blame for their poor decision making, their poor customer service and the attrocious attitude of some of their employees.

Would I be wrong in thinking that Air Canada are banking on a "bail out" by the Government? Should the tax paying Canadian be stung yet again because of Miltons mismanagement?

If Air Canada do go under then what option does the Government have but to bring in an American or UK carrier to service long haul domestic and international routes?

[cyyz]

Yes they're hoping for the bail out..

Why? Whatever funds they recieve will be wasted right away, again as usual.

If anything the government should buy out the remaining stock. And as another poster mentioned FIRE every single employee and rebuild the company from scratch.

Save the carrier as for the personnel, they can all be let go, from CEO to the baggage handlers. If they "love" their job so much they can reapply.

And no unions allowed..

[gelbisch]

And as another poster mentioned FIRE every single employee and rebuild the company from scratch.

that's cute. i'm sure you'd feel that way if you knew folks or if you yourself had dedicated 30+ years of your life to the company. you've made up your mind that every single employee of a.c. is lazy, overpaid, underworked, i suppose? there isn't a single person there who does his job well and is interested in the health of the company?

take off your blinkers and give your head a shake.

[FamilyGuy]

Yes fire em ALL, but save the "carrier"!!! LOL.

How truly intelligent.

So lets see 40,000 employees worldwide suddenly unemployed. How many in Canada now collecting EI and at what cost? That plus whatever additional govt money which would be required to "save the carrier". Good investing of taxpayer money!

21 Canadian, 30 US and 65 international cities now without the service of 720 ACA flights daily. Not to mention the 25 million passengers they haul every year. Of course WJA could pick that slack up right away...LOL. At least until you retrain 40,000 replacement workers. That should only take about...oh I don't know...forever!!!

Of course we can't forget the fleet of 336 aircraft sitting idle while we implement this master stroke of genius. That won't cost much now will it since ACA leases its entire fleet! ADD that to the bill the govt has to pick up to "save the carrier". That would be a BIG bill.

Absolute intelligence! This must have been thought up by an MBA(Master Bullsh*t Artist).

Somehow I think it would be cheaper as suggested for the govt to underwrite the underfunded pension plan for a while. But that was only a small part of the problem. How come none of you experts thought of that one?

[...]

And as another poster mentioned FIRE every single employee and rebuild the company from scratch.

......that's cute...........

.....nice timing.... comedic timing is a rare thing!!!

Ruff

[...]

So lets see 40,000 employees worldwide suddenly unemployed......


.....Of course WJA could pick that slack up right away...LOL. At least until you retrain 40,000 replacement workers.

Um.......WJA would NOT hire anyone that has any experience with another airline. At least the 'Joe' jobs that is. And even if they did.......the total # would be 20,000....and they would pay them 10$ per hour.

[cyyz]

i'm sure you'd feel that way if you knew folks or if you yourself had dedicated 30+ years of your life to the company.

Lazy

there isn't a single person there who does his job well and is interested in the health of the company?

Umm, after 25 years you can retire.. Greed has screwed you over my friend. Anyone who gave them 25+ years and is still there, blew their chance to cash out.. Sucks to be a greedy bugger now, don't it..

I never said they're lazy...

If they all want the Company to survive they'd be willing to get laid off to save it, wouldn't they now??

Family guy, they've had the air carrier not fly while the employees were on strike.. Please, the government should have been PLANNING this long ago.

Buy the corp, layoff all workers and re-hire within a week. Those 40k employees who lost their jobs would be able to reapply. By May first old Air Canada should be gone and new Air Canada should be operational. Maybe you think when they put in the New Hong Kong Airport they just stopped taking flights for 10 years while it was built.

Stupid people wait till the last minute to do something. And since the Gov't has done nothing it'll end up A. Letting Air Canada go broke screwing your 40k beloved employees. Or B. it'll give them cash to save them one more year..

Option C. my/previous posters idea is by far, the best. Let the Gov't create Air Canada II. Now rather later so it's operational by the time AC is dead.. OR the pilots/FAs/Baggage boys should have pooled their millions and started their own Airline. God forbid anyone take initiative.

[SplitS]

By May first old Air Canada should be gone and new Air Canada should be operational

Kinda like New Coke in the 80's?

Mmm, I liked it...

[cyyz]

SplitS

Air Canada spent millions on new Livery already. So I guess the new Image never worked for them either. So.....

Just create a brand new crown corp... Hire new employees, let AC do whatever it wants, let this new air carrier start hiring, so people will have to pick, drop ship AC or stay with them. If they stay with AC, people will move up from charters/wj/jetsgo to this new National Carrier...

Again, this is more beneficial to the industry then
A. Paying for the AC pension
B subsidizing Air Canada for another year maybe two. At the expense of tax payers and pilots.

"Classic Coke" was a better product so people didn't like "new" Coke, but you need people to "like" your product for them to like the new product less. Air Canada as you can see by many posters and obviously the PAX they don't like Air Canada and a change would be better....

[Blastor]

cyyz said: If they all want the Company to survive they'd be willing to get laid off to save it, wouldn't they now??

The employees will loose but the unions will packed their bags and walk to the next industry/company and start their bullsh*t all over again..

cyyz said: Stupid people wait till the last minute to do something. And since the Gov't has done nothing it'll end up A. Letting Air Canada go broke screwing your 40k beloved employees. Or B. it'll give them cash to save them one more year..

If the Gov't bails out Air Canada one more time, be ready for a hughe political backlash.....

BTW It does not make one bit of sense to me why anyone would want to bail out a company that lost 1.9 billion dollars while under Bankruptcy protection. Air Canada doesn't run the country, the electorate does and I say NO!

cyyc said: Option C. my/previous posters idea is by far, the best. Let the Gov't create Air Canada II. Now rather later so it's operational by the time AC is dead..

Great idea! The re-born Air Canada should stick to the International Market. Leave the domestic one for good lest they screwed it up again!

cyyc said: OR the pilots/FAs/Baggage boys should have pooled their millions and started their own Airline. God forbid anyone take initiative.

Unions take away individual initiative.....


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[SplitS]

Cyyz,

Im with you on this one. You can change the management all you want but the model is broken. Sometimes you just need to start from scratch.

AC is an economic disaster - let the market deal with it. Sure it'll blow for the 40 000+ employees but its inevitable. If the company onlly ever losses money why should it be allowed to survive??? Can someone answer me that?

Theres a lot of other players out there willing to fill the void.

[cyyz]

Great idea! The re-born Air Canada should stick to the International Market. Leave the domestic one for good lest they screwed it up again!

Blastor everything you said was right on the money.. *waits for flaming*

Just reiterating this fact, to the nay sayers. Why can't Canada just create a new "National" Airline.. Or Prop-up Air Canada, but for one purpose only for international flights. Have Air Canada leave the domestic business.

Since that's where WJ and others fall short. That's where the big debate seems to be, who will cover the international gap if AC should fall..

But, yes, I'm still up for restructuring and firing all the staff though. Or just a plain old new airline.

[gelbisch]

Umm, after 25 years you can retire.. Greed has screwed you over my friend. Anyone who gave them 25+ years and is still there, blew their chance to cash out..

not that is has any relevance, but i haven't even been walking the planet for thirty years, so you ain't talkin' about me. that said... i'm sure you're aware that many guys were hired in their early 20's back in the 70's. apparently they still have bills to pay and still want to work. which, by your logic, makes it greedy to wish to continue working past 50. as i said earlier: give your head a shake.

If they all want the Company to survive they'd be willing to get laid off to save it, wouldn't they now??

what does this have to do with furlough? the employees gave concessions on the condition that their pensions would not be touched. li is playing dirty and the employees have had enough. is it right or wrong to risk the company in making a point? well, i don't know... i don't work there so it's not for me to say. i just don't understand why so many of you can not put yourselves in these guys' shoes, and indeed are so joyfully cheering the company's possible demise.

Or Prop-up Air Canada, but for one purpose only for international flights. Have Air Canada leave the domestic business.

honestly... i can't argue with that. air canada's struggle on the domestic front is obviously not going well and it seems that they're not properly equipped to compete with the carriers that are giving canadian travellers what they want. perhaps your suggestion is a good solution.

air canada is ailing, and that's a scary thing for those that work there and those of us who've dreamed of it since we could toddle. it's sad from the point of view of history, of canadian indentity and of thousands of jobs. why so many of you are hooting and hollering and heckling from the sidelines is beyond me.

[Wilbur]

All sounds very simple, shut down AC and start over. Obviously, anyone advocating that plan hasn't given it any real thought. Can anyone cite an example anywhere in the world where such a massive and complex undertaking has been pulled off?

AC will survive, by hook or crook, because there is no domestic company remotely able to fill the void that would be left. WJ couldn't even fill the void AC would leave in just western Canada. You don't grow from a few dozen to a few hundred aircraft overnight. WJ has a so far successful business plan that contains a carefully planned growth strategy. Bedoe would have to suddenly overdose on stupid pills to abandon that plan in favour of some get rich quick scheme to replace AC using billions of borrowed dollars.

[gelbisch]

well said, wilbur.

[moe]

how bout we start an airline called avcanada, put all the members here on the payroll. cat driver can be the ops manager cause he loves to deal with tc . 31,000 training bond.

[cyyz]

many guys were hired in their early 20's back in the 70's. apparently they still have bills to pay and still want to work. which, by your logic, makes it greedy to wish to continue working past 50

i just don't understand why so many of you can not put yourselves in these guys' shoes, and indeed are so joyfully cheering the company's possible demise.

why so many of you are hooting and hollering and heckling from the sidelines is beyond me.

No, but when Air Canada goes broke they'll have ZERO pension.. To lose 1% of your pension or 100%, tough choice for some I suppose.

Like I said, every company will give you a package at 25yrs of service.. So, they should have taken the money years ago. And applied some where else or re-applied to Air Canada. You can collect Pension and work for the same company. You just lose seniority and start from the bottom, but atleast they'd have their precious pension and still making income.. 2 paycheques.. But I guess the $260k/yr pay for some seemed like a great deal and they still haven't thought that maybe no one will help them out this time.. C'est la Vie.....

Cheering the demise of Air Canada is 100% necessary. If they get a 1 yr extension say another 100 million from the feds. What's that gonna do? Milton will get another 25 million bonus next year. Employees will have saved their jobs for 365 days. Again, they won't friggin retire to get that bloody pension and we'll be talking about this again... "the fall of Air Canada" next year.. That's not logical. Common sense and their track record shows they've burnt their bridges and soon they'll burn too but no rebirth. Unlike the Canadian industry which has a chance at being a phoenix.. . This needs to be resolved now not later.. As a young person you should see that.. Guess what, most studies show you won't be getting CPP, because the pension plan will be dry by then, but guess what, you'll be paying for it until that point. Doesn't that strike you as odd and something that should be fixed???



Wilbur I also recall the gov't denying Bank of Montreal and Royal Bank the option to Merge..

Where was the gov't on Canadian and Air Canada?

It isn't a massive undertaking, very simple.. Buy the stocks, wow an entire 90 cents/share..
Fire every employee and rebuild from scratch, a proper management team could get it up in under a week.

Or, just create a new company, hire workers again this will only take a few days. Air Canada's aircrafts can be sold the next day after they default on payments to the New Canadian Corp.

1 week.. As for Massive, yes, but what's the difference if Canada dumps the billion into Air Canada or Air Canada II?? The billion would be put to good use in the New Corp..

As for "complex" ROFL... Government.. How hard was it to conscript soldiers for the World Wars and conveniently not draft any Quebecers?? How hard is it to shaft 9 provinces and give amazing deals to 1 province.. What would make this complex?? Training?? Ummm, all the employees would have type ratings, FA classes. Certifications and Legal "stuff" like I said, government.. Pass a bill quickly through Parliament and the Senate, 1 week tops.

My closing point.. W(hy)TF wasn't this done sooner? Show me a country that waits to the last minute to accomplish something? Like I said, did Hong Kong not have an airport for 10 years while they built the new one?

One more, nothing we say will produce any results. Positive or Negative it's a forum to vent at society/industry/world.

[gelbisch]

So, they should have taken the money years ago. And applied some where else or re-applied to Air Canada. You can collect Pension and work for the same company. You just lose seniority and start from the bottom, but atleast they'd have their precious pension and still making income.. 2 paycheques..

obviously we're not going to agree on the best way to handle air canada in their present situation. i'm too biased towards air canada, and you're too much in favour of machiavellian solutions. to each his own...

as far as the above quote, though... are you kidding me?!? consider what you've suggested, and tell my you honestly believe this would have been a viable course of action. you're a 67 captain, early 50's, making $250k-ish... you truly would retire, and then re-apply to become an rj f/o or maybe back on the 67 as relief? even assuming that the company would play along with such a foolish ploy?

dunno, man... of course we're each entitled to our opinions... but this proposal is just ridiculous. to think that, in your view, a guy's desire to work his entire career at one company is greedy... you're being a little simplistic, i think.

anyway, whatever... good debate... you think what you think and i'll do the same. cheers!