Pilatus

Butterz · Post by **Butterz** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:44 pm

It is true, of course others are going to be a bit envious of guys that can afford to buy their PPC's, who wouldn't be? Your stuck scrapping pennies together to pay off student loans and your fellow pilots are spending thousands to upgrade to better equipment and jobs. There are a lot of guys that do work hard and save to do this and you have to admire that kind of determination, but you have to ask yourself is this the direction you want the industry to go? Do you want to fly in a country where every company only hires guys with PPC's? Do you want to work in an industry where the training to get the first job is now another 10K added to your student loans? Do you want your fellow employees to now be a majority of rich kids who don't know the meaning of a hard days work? I know alot of guys doing this worked a second job to buy that PPC, but along with every one of these guys 5 more will have had it payed for by their parents. Why should we have to work a second job to upgrade our training, when it used to be the norm for companies to pay for training. I know it's hard not to want to advance to something better, but there are other ways and for everybody as a whole it's not the right direction.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:18 pm

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there butterz....to stereotype individuals whose parents paid for their training is pretty brutal. I mean, what do you think about kids whose parents pay for their way through university so they can better themselves? All they're doing is getting a leg up on you by paying for training if you think about it. Would you be upset if someone got a job over you because they had a degree and you didn't? I hope not. They just chose to get specialized training in a certain area, that would make them more marketable. Are you saying that by setting up an RESP for my daughter it's going to get her stereotyped and disrespected because I paid for her to go to school no matter what kind of an education she chooses. If she wants to fly then so be it. If, once she is finished her CPL and wants to specialize at say flying Lear jets am I supposed to deny her that if I can afford it? Come on dude, get with it. Every parent wants their children to succeed, and if it has to do with getting them training to better them so be it. It's deductible on the income taxes anyways, so why wouldn't I do it? I don't buy into this crap about people destroying the industry by attaining specialized training. If an individual can't deal with the fact that i've saved up her whole childhood to provide the best for her then they have SERIOUS issues that they have to deal with. We're in the real world, why harass someone or ridicule them or accuse them of degrading the industry because they can better themselves. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If people can't afford this industry, then get out of it. I'm sure you've heard the saying "in order to make money, you have to spend money".

As a side note, here's a question for you. Would you consider someone going on a road trip and spending $4000 as disgracing the industry? Probably not, as they're going out to meet people to gain marketability. They're spending money, in hopes of getting a job and making money in return. What's the difference? Some people can't go on road trips, so are they going to be as envious....again, probably not as much. However, you don't see them in here bitching and whining because they don't have a car and can't get a job like some guy in a car that drives around can. I guess some people just need to grow up.

Butterz · Post by **Butterz** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:49 pm

I agree with you to a certain point confuzed. I think that being able to afford to pay for your child's education is great, I mean my parents helped me as much as they could, everyone wants their children to do well. I plan on being able to set aside some money for my kids post-secondary as well. This is something alot of employers look for and usually expect some college or university for any field of employment. In terms of "specialized" training, I think this is something you earn as you slowly work your way up to more demanding equipment. I know I wouldn't exactly be very comfortable flying in a Lear with a 300hr. pilot flying it down to min. in 1/2m fog and driving rain, just because they can afford the training doesn't mean they're ready to actually do it. I think experience counts for alot, and when you're employer thinks your ready to move onto something a little more complex they should be ready to pay for it. Do you think it's right that the industry is turning into a place where only the precious few can afford to succeed? What about all the other kids out there standing behind airport fences working second jobs to afford to do their training? As for spending $4000 on a road trip thats a pretty expensive road trip and I haven't meet too many people that have ever spent that much. I realize these people are spending money as well to get a job, but I don't consider this the same as buying a PPC. They're out there trying to find a job, meet people, and gain some real world experience. I personally would rather be flying with someone who started off their career that way than with someone who had their parents buy them into a turbine for their first job, but that's just me.

corn-shoot · Post by **corn-shoot** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:35 pm

Butterz wrote: I personally would rather be flying with someone who started off their career that way than with someone who had their parents buy them into a turbine for their first job, but that's just me.

"Dear Air Canada, K'I've a job? But only if you put me with someone who paid for all of his training himself."

You have to understand how naive you sound to me, it's almost rediculous what I am hearing.

Let me tell you about a colleague of mine, he happens to fly for a major airline in the states and comes from a very wealthy family. All of his flight training came from his parents pockets but he did do the work to get into the left seat of a very large jet at the ripe age of 32. Having achieved all of this, he then went and got a masters degree in aerospace engineering (on his dime) and now has a doctorate related to this field. He still flys, but he also doing some very exciting work in aviation that may change the way the whole system functions.

Wwhat he did, was take the head start that was given to him, and ran swiftly with it.

But you wouldn't want to work with or FOR someone like that, right?

Good luck buddy, you're going to need it.

corn-shoot · Post by **corn-shoot** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:48 pm

Futhermore,

Do you think people who work as surgeons worry about where their collegues got the funding and drive to get through medical school? Hell no, they open people up, get the job done and shut up. They may feel a little bitter towards the more fortunate...but... Don't let it effect the way you conduct yourself in your PROFESSION (look that last word up and get back to me).

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:09 pm

Do you think people who work as surgeons worry about where their collegues got the funding and drive to get through medical school? Hell no, they open people up, get the job done and shut up. They may feel a little bitter towards the more fortunate...but... Don't let it effect the way you conduct yourself in your PROFESSION (look that last word up and get back to me).

Exactly my point corn-shoot, nice to see I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Butterz, I think the naive person is you. I mean think about it, if you go down to the states they have graduates from their programs with 250 hours getting their first job in a Beech 1900! 200 hours later, they're F/O's in a RJ! Overseas, you have pilots flying large transport category jets with 1500 hours total time! You're saying that you wouldn't feel comfortable flying with someone with such low time in such machinery? It's just a different way of thinking outside of Canada. Maybe it's arrogance up here that says that you have to hit a certain "milestone" in hours before you "deserve" to fly something larger....for free mind you in your eyes as well. A turbine aircraft is not that difficult to fly, anyone with the determination can fly one. I've flown with pilots on turbine equipment that have over 3000 hours that have worse flying ability and decision making skills then a 500 hour pilot. If an individual can fast track, then all the power to them. Who's to say that even if some kids parents paid for their training isn't going to pay them back? It's just more convenient as there's no interest on it, and you don't have to worry about a bank. The aviation industry is an expensive one to get into, admit it. If people don't want to shell out the money to get into it, then look elsewhere. Don't mean to sound cold, but that's the reality of it. Don't harp and ostracize someone because they have something that you don't. It's the classic sandbox story that kid A has a bigger truck then kid B and it's not fair so kid A shouldn't have the bigger truck. All because mommy and daddy paid for it.......come on dude get real. Also, if say someone who is in their mid 30's to early 40's don't have the luxury of taking 10-15 years to build themselves up. They have families to support and what not, so they go and get whatever they need to get ahead. Again, how is that wrong? All because some poor bugger can't afford it, it's a cardinal sin and a disgrace to this industry?? Again, I think some people have some ISSUES that they have to deal with. Don't take it out on everyone else because of what they DON'T have.