Crash in Edmonton?
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canadian_bacon
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Right Seat, I've seen this illusion before. It was on a low vis day with about 1/2 inch of snow on the runway. We thought we had the runway in sight from about a mile back but as we got closer we realized that it was in fact the area between the runway and the parallel taxiway. It appeared alot darker than the actual runway. My guess was that this was due to the fresh snow on the runway vs all that other dirt and stuff on the infield. I guess this goes to show that during low vis ops, you can take nothing for granted.
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Right Seat Captain
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Very true. Thanks for the info.
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It just suddenly occured to me, shouldn't they have seen the approach lighting? Especially in a snowstorm, with the lights on max, they should indicate quite well where the threshold is, and wouldn't you see the runway lighting? If you couldn't see that clearly, wouldn't you ask for maximum lighting, or do a missed approach, rather than going blindly for an area you think is the runway?
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It just suddenly occured to me, shouldn't they have seen the approach lighting? Especially in a snowstorm, with the lights on max, they should indicate quite well where the threshold is, and wouldn't you see the runway lighting? If you couldn't see that clearly, wouldn't you ask for maximum lighting, or do a missed approach, rather than going blindly for an area you think is the runway?
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canadian_bacon
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From what I've seen, the lights are sometimes hard to see if the runway hasn't been cleared. Usually they aren't even visable until you are directly overtop. I actually carried out a missed approach this winter in good visibility. I knew were the runway should be, but couldn't see it. There was fresh snow on the runway and the lights weren't visable until we flew overhead.
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Right Seat Captain
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Safety board questions First Air flight crew
WebPosted Feb 26 2004 12:54 PM CST
YELLOWKNIFE - The Transportation Safety Board is now interviewing the flight crew of the First Air plane that had a rough landing in Edmonton Wednesday.
The Boeing 737 charter was carrying 31 passengers from the Lupin mine, near the Northwest Territories-Nunavut border.
Jon Lee, the lead investigator with the board, says the charter landed beside the runway in Edmonton Wednesday morning.
Lee says the plane then hit a directional sign, damaging its left engine.
He says the aircraft was able to taxi back onto the runway by the time it stopped.
He says the damage to plane were minor and none of the passengers were injured.
Lee says the transportation board is investigating to determine if foggy conditions are to blame for the rough landing.
WebPosted Feb 26 2004 12:54 PM CST
YELLOWKNIFE - The Transportation Safety Board is now interviewing the flight crew of the First Air plane that had a rough landing in Edmonton Wednesday.
The Boeing 737 charter was carrying 31 passengers from the Lupin mine, near the Northwest Territories-Nunavut border.
Jon Lee, the lead investigator with the board, says the charter landed beside the runway in Edmonton Wednesday morning.
Lee says the plane then hit a directional sign, damaging its left engine.
He says the aircraft was able to taxi back onto the runway by the time it stopped.
He says the damage to plane were minor and none of the passengers were injured.
Lee says the transportation board is investigating to determine if foggy conditions are to blame for the rough landing.
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Flying Low
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OK...to sum this up so far...
They landed short of the runway.
There was minor damage to the aircraft.
They landed on the runway and drifted off it.
The aircraft was written off.
They landed next to the runway and taxied back on to it.
The nose gear was ripped off.
Is anyone else as confused as I am????? Argue
They landed short of the runway.
There was minor damage to the aircraft.
They landed on the runway and drifted off it.
The aircraft was written off.
They landed next to the runway and taxied back on to it.
The nose gear was ripped off.
Is anyone else as confused as I am????? Argue
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shitdisturber
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[Lee says the transportation board is investigating to determine if foggy conditions are to blame for the rough landing.[/quote]
Now that's gotta be one of the dumbest statements i've heard in a while, methinks if it wasn't foggy, it wouldn't have happened. That's almost as bad as saying "the accident was caused by the aircraft hitting the ground."
Now that's gotta be one of the dumbest statements i've heard in a while, methinks if it wasn't foggy, it wouldn't have happened. That's almost as bad as saying "the accident was caused by the aircraft hitting the ground."
Crash in Edmonton
I used to do the Calgary - Edmonchuck route a lot with a Gulfstream and I also used to wonder how anyone could mistake the area beside the runway for the runway till I almost did it myself. If the runway gets a trace of snow or frost on the grey asphalt everything blends in and in the 3 or 4 seconds the pilot has to decide, it is easy to make the wrong assumption. To control drifting snow, the area beside the runway is compacted and nice and flat, just like a runway. For those who have never flown into the ., YEG is out in the bald ass old prairie with no ground lights, just farm land, which makes for safe obstacle clearance but the only thing a pilot sees on approach are the high intensity lights. You are overwhelmed with the bright lights. and if you, like me, wear glasses and a bit of glare and etc etc. it is suprising how easily it can happen. Runways on the prairies take quite a beating in the winter and even the centerline painted line get scraped off so there is little contrast. If the accident happened early in the morning, the lighting would propbably be pretty flat. Canaidian_bacon had a good point but is irrelevent if it was still night. Someone gave the 1300Z weather and so I am assuming it incident took place around 06:00 or later in the morning, which at this time of the year should be just about sunup. Flat light. Easy to miss the runway. The lay of the land is so flat that you still see yesterdays train. No visual clues. Just one honking big snowbank. I wounder if the crew were tired.
I once had to do a go-around in the fog on the ILS12 at YEG because of the rising sun; standing right in our eyes. I also don't know what time it happened, but I agree with the other posters that it sometimes is hard to discern the runway at the ..
So, it looks like there might be lots of contributing factors here.
So, it looks like there might be lots of contributing factors here.
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Cat Driver
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Right Seat Captain
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FWIW, here is an article from the "Edmonton Journal" on the incident:
Miners didn't flinch when 737 missed runway
David Howell
The Edmonton Journal
Saturday, February 28, 2004
ADVERTISEMENT
EDMONTON - Frozen ground helped minimize an accident this week when a Boeing 737-200 passenger jet missed its runway when landing in fog and darkness at the Edmonton International Airport.
"If it had been a mud surface, the aircraft may have dug in and the (landing) gear may have collapsed," Bill Kemp, acting regional manager for the Transportation Safety Board, said Friday.
"If they had to land to the side of the runway, landing on frozen ground is a lot better than a muddy or soft infield, for sure."
The 36 people on the chartered flight -- two pilots, two flight attendants, a loadmaster and 31 passengers -- escaped injury in the accident at 5:45 a.m. Wednesday.
The pilot was attempting an instrument landing but missed the runway entirely. Visibility was about 1,200 feet, the legal minimum to conduct an approach on Runway 12, which runs in a southeast direction, said Jon Lee, investigator-in-charge for the Transportation Safety Board.
The plane touched down in 30 centimetres of snow, about 15 metres off the left side of the runway.
The pilot managed to get the plane back onto the tarmac before it came to a halt. Passengers and crew got out by climbing down a set of stairs.
"The airplane was basically under control at the time of touchdown," Kemp said. "It just touched down to the side of the runway."
The plane's fuselage and landing gear sustained substantial damage. The right engine struck a runway light, four taxiway lights and a directional sign. Snow was sucked into both engines.
The jet, operated by Ontario-based First Air, was on a charter flight from the Lupin gold mine in Nunavut.
The landing was not hard and many passengers, miners who regularly fly into northern airstrips, didn't even notice they weren't on the runway. "Landing on ice strips and gravel strips, they are used to a certain amount of vibration and slipping and skidding," said Lee.
Flight recorders were removed for study before the plane was released to First Air on Wednesday afternoon.
"Information gathered so far indicates there was nothing wrong with the aircraft," said Lee. He interviewed members of the flight crew Thursday but wouldn't reveal what they told him.
The First Air flight was the last plane to land at the International on Wednesday before weather conditions led to all takeoffs and landings being suspended for more than seven hours.
The accident was not related to the flight cancellations in any way, airport spokeswoman Traci Bednard said.
The runway light and taxiway lights were replaced the same day. The directional sign will be replaced within three weeks, Bednard said.
Most Canadian airports -- including Calgary -- have a similar instrument landing system to the one in use at the International. Only Toronto and Vancouver have systems that can allow full instrument landing in any conditions.
John Morris, spokesman for Nav Canada, which operates the civil air navigation system, said the decision to land any aircraft is always the pilot's to make.
Kemp said 190 incidents of missed-runway landings have been reported to the Transportation Safety Board since 1976. Most involve light aircraft, he said.
The Transportation Safety Board investigation could take three months or more. Transport Canada has appointed a minister's observer to the safety board investigation.
The observer will keep watch so identified safety concerns can be immediately addressed, Transport Canada spokeswoman Susan McLennan said.
Transport Canada will also conduct a post-accident review, McLennan added. That will involve following up with First Air, Edmonton International and Nav Canada to ensure that Canadian aviation regulations were followed.
dhowell@thejournal.canwest.com
© Copyright 2004 Edmonton Journal
Miners didn't flinch when 737 missed runway
David Howell
The Edmonton Journal
Saturday, February 28, 2004
ADVERTISEMENT
EDMONTON - Frozen ground helped minimize an accident this week when a Boeing 737-200 passenger jet missed its runway when landing in fog and darkness at the Edmonton International Airport.
"If it had been a mud surface, the aircraft may have dug in and the (landing) gear may have collapsed," Bill Kemp, acting regional manager for the Transportation Safety Board, said Friday.
"If they had to land to the side of the runway, landing on frozen ground is a lot better than a muddy or soft infield, for sure."
The 36 people on the chartered flight -- two pilots, two flight attendants, a loadmaster and 31 passengers -- escaped injury in the accident at 5:45 a.m. Wednesday.
The pilot was attempting an instrument landing but missed the runway entirely. Visibility was about 1,200 feet, the legal minimum to conduct an approach on Runway 12, which runs in a southeast direction, said Jon Lee, investigator-in-charge for the Transportation Safety Board.
The plane touched down in 30 centimetres of snow, about 15 metres off the left side of the runway.
The pilot managed to get the plane back onto the tarmac before it came to a halt. Passengers and crew got out by climbing down a set of stairs.
"The airplane was basically under control at the time of touchdown," Kemp said. "It just touched down to the side of the runway."
The plane's fuselage and landing gear sustained substantial damage. The right engine struck a runway light, four taxiway lights and a directional sign. Snow was sucked into both engines.
The jet, operated by Ontario-based First Air, was on a charter flight from the Lupin gold mine in Nunavut.
The landing was not hard and many passengers, miners who regularly fly into northern airstrips, didn't even notice they weren't on the runway. "Landing on ice strips and gravel strips, they are used to a certain amount of vibration and slipping and skidding," said Lee.
Flight recorders were removed for study before the plane was released to First Air on Wednesday afternoon.
"Information gathered so far indicates there was nothing wrong with the aircraft," said Lee. He interviewed members of the flight crew Thursday but wouldn't reveal what they told him.
The First Air flight was the last plane to land at the International on Wednesday before weather conditions led to all takeoffs and landings being suspended for more than seven hours.
The accident was not related to the flight cancellations in any way, airport spokeswoman Traci Bednard said.
The runway light and taxiway lights were replaced the same day. The directional sign will be replaced within three weeks, Bednard said.
Most Canadian airports -- including Calgary -- have a similar instrument landing system to the one in use at the International. Only Toronto and Vancouver have systems that can allow full instrument landing in any conditions.
John Morris, spokesman for Nav Canada, which operates the civil air navigation system, said the decision to land any aircraft is always the pilot's to make.
Kemp said 190 incidents of missed-runway landings have been reported to the Transportation Safety Board since 1976. Most involve light aircraft, he said.
The Transportation Safety Board investigation could take three months or more. Transport Canada has appointed a minister's observer to the safety board investigation.
The observer will keep watch so identified safety concerns can be immediately addressed, Transport Canada spokeswoman Susan McLennan said.
Transport Canada will also conduct a post-accident review, McLennan added. That will involve following up with First Air, Edmonton International and Nav Canada to ensure that Canadian aviation regulations were followed.
dhowell@thejournal.canwest.com
© Copyright 2004 Edmonton Journal
Last edited by W5 on Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Right Seat Captain
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I'm afraid I'll have to retract my statement. Not because 'm wrong, but because I'd rather not release the name of the person I refer to. I apologize for bringing it up, I shouldn't have, since I was unable to back it up for this reason. We'll just have to wait until First Air makes it public.Right Seat Captain wrote:According to a manager from First Air that's standing behind me right now, they did write it off.ArcticFlyer wrote:Right Seat Captain,
What you heard is wrong. The airplane is not a write off and no the nose gear wasn't ripped off.
Cheers!!
But also note, I wasn't the one to claim the nose gear was ripped off, since that is not what I had heard.
