Air Mikisew VS Perimeter....

[wingspan]

I am totally unable to understand why any pilot should be expected to work the ramp period to get to fly an airplane....

Try to find a job at 200 hours and get back to me!!! I'm sure all the guys at Mikisew or Pemimeter tried. I sure did...road trips, sending out cv's,phone calls, in person etc. name it! and it didnt work out.

So I went on ramp and now i'm flying multi turbine at 19.

[Pie Lot]

Sorry Pie Lot, complete twaddle. If you can't pick a guys character in the first few hours in the 'plane, your hiring process is garbage. This ONLY benefits the company. All the rest of that stuff you can learn while being checked out.

Don't you feel just a bit guilty spouting that crap?

Nope, don't feel guilty at all. I started on the ramp. Did 5.5 months. Now senior base Captain 3.5 years later. Buddy did 6 months on ramp. Hired same time. He is now at Jazz. Latest bunch of ground folk spent about 6-8 months on the ground flying part time as well. Now they are all on the plane full time. In the last 4 years, we have never had a person go a full year without flying part time (weekends or day off ground duty). And after that full year, they were all full time pilots. Our last batch of ground folk went directly onto a BE10 right seat. Most of them had not done 1 year on the ground. They all worked hard and earned it. Why would anyone feel guilty about doing that to someone??

The only people that don't get upgraded either to full time pilots, Captains etc, are those that don't deserve to be. Lazy or useless on the ground = lazy useless in the air. Ramp position is great for weeding out the Mutts.

Sorry but 200 hours does not entitle you to a full time Turbine / EFIS Flying job. No Way!!

And why would we waste training dollars on a direct entry 250hr wonder just to find out in a few hours he is an idiot? We can find out on the ground cheap, and eliminate the problem there!

I hate attitudes of entitlement. No one is entitled to anything. Earn what you get.

And in case you are wondering, the company is NAC out of YQT.

[pilotsdream]

Thank you everyone for your replies.
Already spent three years on ramp in Kelowna so it's not like it's a "new thing"
I've applied to both Wasaya and NAC, have a few more questions with Perimeter which will be discussed today to clairify...
Thanks
PD.

[Cat Driver]

Sorry but 200 hours does not entitle you to a full time Turbine / EFIS Flying job. No Way!!

What is so special about flyng turbine / EFIS equipment, does it requirs some extra talent that other pilots do not have?

And is this special talent only learned working on the ramp?

[Surly Joe]

A pair of round engines and an airplane made in the forties requires special talent...especially on wheel/skis. Everything after that just gets easier.

[lyncher]

Sorry but 200 hours does not entitle you to a full time Turbine / EFIS Flying job. No Way!!

What is so special about flyng turbine / EFIS equipment, does it requirs some extra talent that other pilots do not have?

And is this special talent only learned working on the ramp?

my first job was turbine EFIS...... it was a single but sill.

[flying4dollars]

want some genuine no bullshit info on Air Mikisew? pm me..

I find it amusing how grossly misperceived Mikisew is/was..

I wouldn't have lasted so long if it were true

[Goose757]

I am totally unable to understand why any pilot should be expected to work the ramp period to get to fly an airplane....

Try to find a job at 200 hours and get back to me!!! I'm sure all the guys at Mikisew or Pemimeter tried. I sure did...road trips, sending out cv's,phone calls, in person etc. name it! and it didnt work out.

So I went on ramp and now i'm flying multi turbine at 19.

Well said. I love how we have all these 20,000+ hour retired guys telling us that the industry is great and its easy to get a flying job with 200 hours. How many people on here can say they got a flying job fresh out of flight school with 200 hours?

[lyncher]

*raises hand*

[Goose757]

*raises hand*

With absolutely no ramp time? Who did you know?

[lyncher]

I know lots in the industry..... but the truth is i got lucky....

[Goose757]

I know lots in the industry..... but the truth is i got lucky....

Well congrats, (and I mean that).

But for all the people that like to criticize people for working the ramp, I've been on the ramp for almost a year and a half, will be flight line in the next few months and I'm very happy. I chose, (and got), the company I wanted to work for. I live in a great city, its good for me and my wife and we love it. I chose lifestyle over a job that would get me in an aircraft as fast as possible. I'd rather fly for a safe company with good maintenance and a diverse fleet rather than some of the other shady operators out there, (not to say that any place that gives you a flying job without working the ramp is shady). I'm in no rush to make the airlines so that I can hate my job for the next 35 years.

Enjoy the ride, whether you're ramping or flying.

[lyncher]

im not against ramping it either, i just think that you shouldnt just take anything that comes up right away, look for a seat for awhile first, then after awhile, you can accept the ramp.

[pilotsdream]

I think this has completely strayed off topic.
thank you to those who helped and offered INFO on the said companies!
much appreciated!

[flying4dollars]

nothing wrong with working the ramp

nothing!

When I finished my training, I had sent resumes out like mad, I made personal visits, road trips, and even spent thousands on tickets to fly out places. I got nothing. I know I'm very employable and I believe in my own abilities to be above and beyond average, but not all employers will get to know that. I decided rather I'd take the plunge and work the ramp if that will get me flying. Well I came to Mikisew and haven't turned back since. I know I will fly soon, and with the movement going on here, I'll get what I deserve. A good flying job with a good company, on some great equipment.

There is too much talk about "you should never have to work on the ramp for longer than xx months". Its not always within a companies control. It's all dependant on what companies you want to advance to are doing. If the WestJets and Air Canada's are hiring, chances are movement will be steady. If they aren't, movement will be limited, and therefore results in a longer wait on the ground. Not because the company is taking advantage, but because they don't have room on their roster for a 5th beech f/o with 2 planes only needing 3 or 4 at MOST.

That's my take and I'll stick with that. I'm not a senior guy in anyway and I am not taking anything away from you experienced guys, but yes, times HAVE changed, and it is NOT as easy as saying "you guys with 2xx hours should be able to get a job flying with no ramp work"

I've tried..real hard, or maybe its just my bad luck. But I know I'm a damn good employee and thats what I have going for me. That didnt work, so I'm goin the ramp route. I won't have any regrets, especially when I get to work with guys who did the same, and are now 200 captains at age 26.

pilotsdream like I said when I pm'd you, do your research, and if you can, expense a visit to both Mik and Perim. Decide for youself.

either way, good luck!

[DHC3Rwannafly]

I understand the point of working the ramp to get on to a multi/turbine, but why is everyone in such a rush. Most guys now days are in their early 20's by the time they finish training. Why does no one want to go work in the bush anymore, learn from guys who've got thousands of hours and some of the best hands and feet there is. There are plenty of opportunities out there in the bush; wheels and float businesses. I got hired with 205 hrs, I consider myself lucky, but I'm not the only one, so maybe it's not luck. It's nice to hear that you and joe over there are 25 and captains on a 200 or pc12, or whatever other "cool" plane there are, but the 30 year old captain on a 200 who got a flying job at 200 hrs, probably has more to show.

[Cat Driver]

Well said. I love how we have all these 20,000+ hour retired guys telling us that the industry is great and its easy to get a flying job with 200 hours.

Well first off I'm not completely retired yet.

Second I do not recall ever saying it is easy to get the first job because it has always been difficult to find that first paying flying job.

But this mindset of pilots having to work the ramp to show their employer they will be a productive pilot is nonesense.

How many people on here can say they got a flying job fresh out of flight school with 200 hours?

Not me because I had 252 hours when I was hired for my first flying job. There were ten pilots for every job then..just like now.

[ei ei owe]

I don't think there's ten flying jobs per pilot, Cat. Judging by what I see there's still a glut of 230 hr candidates. Sure the jobs are more plentiful but you still see alot of high minimums. I think ramping gives the feeling of a guaranteed "in." If you stick it out long enough, you'll get your seat so long as you don't screw up in training.

Right now there's a few of our rampies getting jobs elsewhere (flying jobs that is). Ramping puts a low time pilot in a rumour mill that talks about openings daily and sometimes one of them takes that job. It may be next door at another company but sometimes it's not. Exposure, I guess one could say.

[flying4dollars]

I understand the point of working the ramp to get on to a multi/turbine, but why is everyone in such a rush. Most guys now days are in their early 20's by the time they finish training. Why does no one want to go work in the bush anymore, learn from guys who've got thousands of hours and some of the best hands and feet there is. There are plenty of opportunities out there in the bush; wheels and float businesses. I got hired with 205 hrs, I consider myself lucky, but I'm not the only one, so maybe it's not luck. It's nice to hear that you and joe over there are 25 and captains on a 200 or pc12, or whatever other "cool" plane there are, but the 30 year old captain on a 200 who got a flying job at 200 hrs, probably has more to show.

who said anyone was in a rush? yeah a lot of people get overly eager, but not everyone. It took me 3 years post flight training to realize no one wanted to hire me to fly (which I'm still trying to figure out why). Luck has a lot to do it with, luck and timing, and who you know doesnt hurt. I guess none of those factors were on my side, but I'm on the right track now and I'll go with it.

Not sure where you were going with this though:

It's nice to hear that you and joe over there are 25 and captains on a 200 or pc12, or whatever other "cool" plane there are, but the 30 year old captain on a 200 who got a flying job at 200 hrs, probably has more to show.

I wasnt talking about who has more to show. "m pointing out not every 200 hour wonder gets lucky like those of you who did get direct entry jobs at that experience level.

Yes, there are lots of opportunities right now. But not enough that can give every 200 hour pilot a direct entry job. Its not as easy as some of you are making it out to be. If it was for you, then that's great to hear. Not everyone is fortunate enough. So for people like that, theres the ramp.

Hey nothing stopping a rampy from searching for something else direct entry, at least in the mean time he/she is working towards a seat in case said person can't find anything.

Anyways, this is one of those issues in aviation that will never come to rest. Ah well, just go with it...

[Goose757]

Well said. I love how we have all these 20,000+ hour retired guys telling us that the industry is great and its easy to get a flying job with 200 hours.

Well first off I'm not completely retired yet.

Second I do not recall ever saying it is easy to get the first job because it has always been difficult to find that first paying flying job.

But this mindset of pilots having to work the ramp to show their employer they will be a productive pilot is nonesense.

How many people on here can say they got a flying job fresh out of flight school with 200 hours?

Not me because I had 252 hours when I was hired for my first flying job. There were ten pilots for every job then..just like now.

Wasn't necessarily pointing the finger at you when I made the comment.

But I totally agree with you that its bull$hit when people say they have to work the ramp to prove their work ethic. You can evaluate someones work ethic in the first two months or so, you don't need a year and a half. The companies know its slave labour, I know it too. But I just don't see a way around it, and I know a lot of people feel the same way. Its pretty rare for 200 hour wonders to get flying jobs right away, and the only ones I've seen have admitted that they were just in the right place at the right time.

That being said, I have no regrets ramping. I'm paid above average and the decision couldn't have worked out better for me and my wife.

You said you got a job in an industry where there were 10 pilots for every job. Would you say you got lucky Cat? If not, what made the difference?

[spinner747]

Goose757, what company do you work for? where are you based? if you don't mind me asking.
Thanks

[Cat Driver]

You said you got a job in an industry where there were 10 pilots for every job. Would you say you got lucky Cat? If not, what made the difference?

My situation was a bit complicated, when I was in my teens I had rumatoid arthritis and it slowed down my ability to become a pilot....and I basically worked my way into a flying offer by first working as a mechanic in the hangar which was priceless in being a better pilot.

My first job was flying a J 3 crop spraying because the people who I worked as a mechanic for were involved in ag work.

[North Shore]

I basically worked my way into a flying offer by first working as a mechanic in the hangar which was priceless in being a better pilot.

Isn't that, essentially, working the ramp? Guaranteed, if you'd been a hack engineer, they wouldn't have offered you a seat.

[Pie Lot]

Cat:

I completely respect your opinion and years of experience. This isn't a shot so please dont take it that way!

You may not have started in aviation working the ramp per se, but you did get your first flying job, by taking a non-flying position on the ground for an operator.

And yes, working as a mechanic would be way more valuable an experience than chucking bags. But your time as a mechanic gave the operator a chance to see your work ethic, personality etc, and they obviously decided that you were worth taking the chance on to put on an airplane. What I am saying was that back then, just like now, you had to prove your worth before you flew. You didn't just walk in off the street with an ink still wet licence, and get a flying job.

In our company, one of my friends got his start on the "ground" working towards his AME licence. Once that was complete, everyone knew he was a great guy, hard worker, and a real asset. Putting him on the flight line was a no brainer. Same as it was in your case I am sure.

But for these 220 hour wonders, that feel they are owed a turbine flying job, without having to prove their worth at all to the company; that is my problem.

[DHC3Rwannafly]

If you truly have a good work ethic and are not a lazy ass, then your references, granted the operator calls them, should show exactly that. You don't need to work the ramp to show that, that's what references are for.