How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

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MichaelP
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by MichaelP »

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Yes 'Advanced' Ultralight, but you can still do an ultralight permit in one and then get a passenger carrying 'rating' to take people for flights in a modern aircraft while TC has little input or bother with you.
An aeroplane with equal or lower performance but operated for PPL training is in a different situation and requires several 1000% more bother between TC and the OC holder.
If you operated certified Aeroncas with 65hp Continentals, the rigmarole is huge.
If you operated 100hp glass cockpit 'Advanced' Ultralights like the SportStar there's little rigmarole, and you can get on with it with relatively less investment and a lot less trauma.

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SkyWolfe
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by SkyWolfe »

Doc wrote:Flight training has been too long the domain of the rich spoiled brats. Or the recipients of student loans, government grants, or tax payer's dollars. You do get the odd guy, who actually has a job, work his way through the PPL, but mostly, it's the "Royal Bank of Mommy and Daddy".
Then we have companies that perpetuate the problem (mind set?) by actually charging even more money to hire your spoiled child.
Small FTUs are a thing of the past. TC has made it virtually impossible for a real "Flying Club" kind of atmosphere to even exist. Students come out of the "puppy mills" that are today's flight schools, with ego, attitude, and great expectations. (Are you all really pissed at me yet?)
But, a hell of a lot of them, (way too many) can't fly. Really. I've had guys who really can't land in a cross wind. They don't even know what to do with their hands and feet. Do they not train this?
I guess, this kind of training is Okay if you're headed to Jazz, or AC. Maybe there should be two types of flight schools? One aimed at turning out the FOs of the future? The other, geared to teach "pilots" to "fly"?
I dunno.
As a product of the puppy mill why don't you teach me how to really fly doc :P

I'm trying to increase my skill on my own... But it's sad... for the most part you are right.

Also - MP makes a good point on the status of Aircraft at the flying schools... yikes. I like the Sealand Air fleet, it feels like the plane wouldn't mysteriously break apart :lol:
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MichaelP
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by MichaelP »

As a product of the puppy mill why don't you teach me how to really fly doc
She's a good looking girl Doc, keep your mind on the job won't you?
I'm trying to increase my skill on my own... But it's sad... for the most part you are right.
Don't worry, we'll be increasing that skill level tenfold starting tomorrow at noon if the weather is better... Make sure you've read my tailwheel notes :D
TC has made it virtually impossible for a real "Flying Club" kind of atmosphere to even exist.
We are trying to create this sort of atmosphere here, like a proper English Pub, a Flying Club atmosphere is always welcome.

The next thing is this PC SMS business... We'll have to create a whole department and employ people to look after this thing. What is really important is proper training to make SMS redundant... Creating loads more paperwork that few can understand with dictums about this and that, trying to estimate risks etc... Perhaps we'll need people with Phd's in psychology, specialising in human failings... In fact the idea of an open propeller in front of our aircraft without an iron mesh guard around it should make what we do unlawful!
Where does it stop????
Government departments creating new empires that we somehow have to manage and pay for while all we want to do is teach people to fly.

Let's do what England did, export our flying training somewhere else and then give the people validations on their foreign licences rather than do them here...
What was so very wrong with the way it was done thirty years ago when people learned to fly without so much BS?
Really. I've had guys who really can't land in a cross wind.
When I learned to fly in the Cessna 150 it was crab and kick it straight as a rule, we learned the wing down sideslip method as an exercise....
All these airline hopefuls here who are only taught the wing down method are in for a shock when they break out at minimums, wings level and in a crab on the ILS... Then there's the problem of having pods that smack the ground if you try to do what you've been taught in a high wing Cessna in Canada.
I teach both methods and the student can make his/her own choice depending on the circumstance.

Last night in the Pub there were two airline pilots, both with good stick and rudder skills, one flying 737s the other 747s, and yes the lack of such skills was foremost in their discussion... So many near misses due to the pilot failing to recognise when the autopilot did something wrong... Even the classic go around with nobody flying the aircraft, and the autopilot was off line! Reminds me of teaching in the Tiger Moth, we started an early climbing turn to the left so I asked the chap in the back through the indecent intercom what he was doing.... He thought I had control. There's a bit of a difference between a free flight Tiger Moth and a free flight 7*7 with a load of screaming passengers!
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Hedley
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Hedley »

Once you understand that creating reams and reams
of paperwork is far more important to a flight school
than teaching students basic stick & rudder skills, you'll
have turned the attitude corner.

Five knot crosswind limit, anyone? Bueller?
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

Five knot crosswind limit, anyone? Bueller?
Don't forget leaving the gear down doing circuits in the Beech Baron.....the idea of course is it will be the definitive test of skill when an inside engine fails in the turn to X/wind.

It's the new Darwin approach to flight training.

Idiots.
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trey kule
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by trey kule »

Cat wrote:
Don't forget leaving the gear down doing circuits in the Beech Baron.....the idea of course is it will be the definitive test of skill when an inside engine fails in the turn to X/wind.
Really? There is a flight school doing this? Unbelievable!

Skywolfe:

With your attitude you will do just fine. Learning from experience and expanding your capabilities takes some time. the problem in most cases is new pilots simply think there is really nothing more to learn.


Micheal P...you sound like you are attempting to do a first class job...good luck.
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Cat Driver
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

Really? There is a flight school doing this? Unbelievable!
Trey Kule , rumor has it that would appear that way....

The amazing part is it is one of Canada's Top Gun colleges....and TC it would seem is content with their training policies....

Go figure.......

Want to send your kids there so they can be trained in the new age Darwinism model?
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Hedley »

Canada's Top Gun colleges....and TC it would seem is content with their training policies
It's worse than that. With layer upon layer of burdensome
regulation that keeps being heaped upon flight schools, it
is inevitable that the gov't will shut down the small flight
schools, and leave us only with this "Top Gun" college
and it's ilk, for flight training in Canada.

Remember, the answer is always more paper.
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

Hedley, do you know any of the people responsible for these unorthodox training policies like the 5 knot X/wind limit and the unblieveable gear down circuit training in the Baron?

Or is this just a sick sad joke that someone has dreamed up and is not really true?
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Hedley
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Hedley »

5 knot X/wind limit
That one is bizarre and embarassing, and I'm sure
limits solo opportunities, but is probably not dangerous
the unbelieveable gear down circuit training in the Baron
That one is dangerous. You'd have to wonder if there
were any legal liability issues arising from that procedure.

Some day, someone has an engine failure after takeoff,
and can't climb because they've been taught to leave
the gear down. Beechcraft I am sure would point to
their POH, leaving the developers of this very unusual
procedure wide open to very expensive litigation.
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

but is probably not dangerous
As long as the trainee is not faced with a difficult X/wind landing in a high wind, then loss of control can become very dangerous in the wrong place.

As to the Baron gear down issue, a crash due to loss of control with the gear down will be a slam dunk for the lawyers who sue the school......

Now Hedley did you read my discussion with TC Guy when I asked him why TC accepts this training policy by that school?

I realize that TC Guy may not really be an employee of TCCA, he could be sitting in a home for the mentally deficient for all I know. However we both know that TC types read this forum and so far none have come out of the closet to clear up this very troubling issue.
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Northern Skies »

5 knot X/wind limit
That really doesn't sound healthy. We did flights of circuits with 25 kts at 90 degrees in training. At my first job I had a 40kt cross at 60deg's and I had no problem in a 206. They should be training these guys for the real world.
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

They should be training these guys for the real world.
To do that would require instructors who know what the real world is.
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SkyWolfe
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by SkyWolfe »

I was always thinking about how awesome it would be to have a flying school that taught you real world flying. By that I mean real bush type flying - gravel, dirt, grass, real short runways, floats (as in docking etc in a very indepth level), landing on sand bars, tail wheel, crap crap weather, and so on.

Not to say I didn't learn anything valuable, I just feel I am missing the techniques required to go out into the real world. Most people I remember just wanted to be instructors... Sure, what we learned is great for that... But when I tell the operator I can't fly because there's a 5kt cross wind... I don't think he's gonna be smiling. :roll:
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

Most people I remember just wanted to be instructors..
How can they instruct something they have never learned?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Northern Skies
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Northern Skies »

SkyWolfe wrote:I was always thinking about how awesome it would be to have a flying school that taught you real world flying. By that I mean real bush type flying - gravel, dirt, grass, real short runways, floats (as in docking etc in a very indepth level), landing on sand bars, tail wheel, crap crap weather, and so on.
It did exist. I switched to a school like that from a college halfway through my training. It started someone out with a much better background for the bush than a puppy mill grad. First there was the 50 hour float course, in saltwater. So we touched on dealing with tide, some swells etc. We flew in some bad wx, not as bad as the guys from the spit were going in but certainly advanced for a CPL student. Most of the training was flying around and letting the student learn how to pick a spot at a random place, judge it, and then we would do a bunch of landings and figure out how to secure the airplane there before moving on and exploring a little bit more. All of this was down in the islands at low level, up the inlets, and in the mountains. After that I did their mountain course on wheels, where they taught me how to navigate through some tight and confusing areas at low level, trying to make me get myself lost. The weather was always presumed to be 500' above the highest pass of the route and I was not allowed to pop up to get my bearings. Then we went into some gravel strips such as Homathko, Scar creek, Quatam, Woss, and the one halfway up the bute inlet that I can't remember the name of....... We even landed on the beach at low tide by Calvin falls on Nootka island. Quatam was awesome. When I was done that dual flying I did my solo timebuilding, and ventured up into places like the Knight and Kingcome inlets. I had a bunch of games I would play in updrafts that were like surfing a wave on the ocean, these helped develop some stick and rudder flying and a sense for low flying. They even let me do my commercial cross-country through the mountains to Prince Rupert via Bella Coola. The only thing it lacked was some taildragging, I had to learn that elsewhere. I still want to try skis.

Of course it wasn't anywhere near as demanding as a job is, but it was a lot for a total newbie to get into. It sure was a hell of a lot better than flying between Waterloo and London in a 152. It was all with experienced instructors who had experience outside of instructing. The school had some fresh class 4's, but they were all giving PPL's to air cadets back at the airport and could not teach the advanced stuff. I wasn't surprised when he sold off the school in pieces and retired, and I hope that there are a lot of other guys doing this kind of training. Actually I'm sure there are but like anything good, someone has to do some searching to find it.
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by TC Guy »

Cat Driver wrote:I realize that TC Guy may not really be an employee of TCCA, he could be sitting in a home for the mentally deficient for all I know.
LOL! Score!

Ya caught me Cat.

I will now go and play with my lint collection under the desk.

I do have to say, I am really no longer interested in having a conversation with you. You don't have any respect for anything I say. You do not have an open mind. You insult anyone that does not see things your way. So, it is a waste of energy for me to respond to your posts -- there is no point.

I have always tried to respect your opinions, and "play nice" despite the unending hostility.

So, have your sandbox. Sh!t in it all you want.

Good luck.

-Guy
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by Cat Driver »

No problem TC Guy you are only another make believe name in cyber space, at least I am secure enough to post in my own name.
So, have your sandbox. Sh!t in it all you want.
There we go, now that makes me wonder if you really might be working for TCCA, if you are the kids can decide who is better to listen to you or me.....at least they know who I am.

And just for the record TC Guy it is not you personally I have issues with because you are just some made up name...it is who you claim to work for that I hold in contempt because the organization is corrupt at the top.

Before you go off half cocked and shoot yourself in the head TC Guy read this again.
I realize that TC Guy may not really be an employee of TCCA, he could be sitting in a home for the mentally deficient for all I know.
When you choose to post anonymously your ability to be taken seriously is hampered by being anonymous.

So there my friend lies your problem, I have enough self worth to post my thoughts openly in my true name...if people have issues with me they at least know who and what I am.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
SkyWolfe
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by SkyWolfe »

Northern Skies


Sweeet. :P
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Re: How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

Post by trey kule »

I see nothing wrong with someone not wanting to post their real name on these forums.
And, on balance, TC Guy has provided a fair bit of balance to the often unjustified rantings that are posted on these threads.

Bashing TC seems to be a fashionable thing here, but the reality is, that for the most part it is not solving any real issues, and making personal slurs at people is really not called for.

If people have thoughts of how to change the industry, I am interested in hearing them. And I am interested in all learned points of view.
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