Westjet off runway in YOW. No Injuries

[invertedattitude]

We landed in YOW about a half hour before WJ. I can vouch that the conditions were balls. When we were shutting down, the Capt feathered the props and the plane slid backwards. Quite the ice rink.

What was the RFI at that time?

[carnie]

Can't remember offhand, (.32 rings a bell but not sure) Fair to poor braking action was the general concensus reported by aircraft landing at that time. The taxiways and ramp seemed to be more problematic for us.

[snaproll20]

"...our crews are trained for these kinds of incidents."


Bit of an unfortunate choice of words from an airline spokesman, wouldn't you say?

[the_professor]

I was driving on the road west of CYOW
at that time, and it was damned icy. My
hat is off to any pilot who can land a large
aircraft on a runway which is covered with
clear ice and water. Practically zero friction.

I, on the other hand, would question the judgement of any pilot who decides to land an aircraft with 94 on board "on a runway which is covered with clear ice and water."

Seems like a dumbass decision to me.

And, while they may have landed on the runway, they arrived in a field. Piss-poor from what are supposed to be "highly trained professionals."

[2milefinal]

yet again the the_professor has it all figured out.

[the_professor]

yet again the the_professor has it all figured out.

There's not much to figure out on this one, is there?

Hedley praises the crew, and yet there is no room for praise when a 737 ends up off a runway that has been receiving freezing precip all day... Or are you one of those who'll make excuses for everyone involved except the crew?

("Maybe if the captain's mother hadn't sent him to that daycare in the poor neighbourhood, none of this would have happened...")

[linecrew]

I was driving on the road west of CYOW
at that time, and it was damned icy. My
hat is off to any pilot who can land a large
aircraft on a runway which is covered with
clear ice and water. Practically zero friction.

I, on the other hand, would question the judgement of any pilot who decides to land an aircraft with 94 on board "on a runway which is covered with clear ice and water."

Seems like a dumbass decision to me.

And, while they may have landed on the runway, they arrived in a field. Piss-poor from what are supposed to be "highly trained professionals."

Seems like a lot of successful landings took place around the time that Westjet ran off the end. Perhaps it was not the RSC that was a main factor here.

All arrival times are local

ASQ569 CRJ2 Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (KATL) Mon 00:11
JZA8474 CRJ9 Winnipeg Int'l (CYWG) Mon 00:07
JZA8987 CRJ2 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 23:50
ACA2458 A319 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 23:38
ACA470 E190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 23:35
ACA468 A320 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 23:28
AWI3662 CRJ2 Philadelphia Intl (KPHL) Sun 23:21
XALNK LJ24 Nashville Intl (KBNA) Sun 23:14
WJA846 B737 Calgary Int'l (CYYC) Sun 23:05
ACA138 A320 Vancouver Intl (CYVR) Sun 23:04
ACA466 E170 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:46
FLG2881 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Sun 22:28
ACA466 E170 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:46
FLG2881 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Sun 22:28
ACA124 E190 Calgary Int'l (CYYC) Sun 22:21
SKK924 B190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:21
JZA8854 CRJ9 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:18
BTA2980 E135 Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE) Sun 22:08
N528QS GLF5 Laurence G Hanscom Fld (KBED) Sun 22:01
JZA7735 CRJ1 La Guardia (KLGA) Sun 21:57
ACA1221 XXXX Quebec/Jean Lesage Intl (CYQB) Sun 21:49

[Hot Fuel]

Which raises my controversial question asked earlier that nobody seems to want to touch. Does anybody think this might become an increasing trend across the board with all carriers given the rapid movement of flight crews that is occurring? Any chance this is a result of the lowering experience levels? If these types of occurrences are indeed a result of lower experience levels I would think a rise in occurrences at the 703 level will quickly become evident this spring.

[ragbagflyer]

I think it's too soon to assume that the runway was covered in ice. With over four hours since last reported freezing precip and the possibility of the melting chemicals being spread. I am curious though why the RFI hasn't been reported yet. Maybe it was just a shite landing, in any case it seems that that two feet of snow might have been a blessing.

[El Comat]

Which raises my controversial question asked earlier that nobody seems to want to touch. Does anybody think this might become an increasing trend across the board with all carriers given the rapid movement of flight crews that is occurring? Any chance this is a result of the lowering experience levels? If these types of occurrences are indeed a result of lower experience levels I would think a rise in occurrences at the 703 level will quickly become evident this spring.

Just my opinion, but I don't think this is a big issue (the 705 part anyway...I agree that the 703 experience pool is becoming shallower and will have an impact on safety). I don't think it's very likely that there will be captains on the heavy iron who aren't plenty experienced. However, with less experienced FOs, perhaps the captains will just have to be more prepared to scrap the approach if it isn't bang on the numbers. Plus, with the way aviation is, it'll be a few more years (let's hope longer!) and we'll be back to people with 3000 hours not being able to find work on a King Air because folks with 4000 hours will be taking the jobs. Then when the boom starts again, it'll take 5000 hours to get on at Jazz (remember 2004/2005?). Then 4000...then 3000...2000...1500....and we're back to our present situation. In fact, I'd say we'll still be on here, all a little more aged and crusty, yelling at the new kids telling them not to buy PPCs or work for free. TonySoprano and the WJ folks will still be comparing T4s/profit sharing/schedules (hopefully I'll be able to add $0.02 to either side). Cat will still hate TC. Doc will still hate SEIFR. Valcore will still hate AC. C-HRIS will still love MacGuyver (who doesn't???). Someone will still be looking for their headset soul mate. Companies will still be posting their jobs with "Pay - as per company matrix". lol...have I missed anything?

Wow that took a hard left.....I guess what I'm trying to say is that this cycle will only last for so long, then we won't have to worry about inexperienced folks advancing beyond their abilities. In the meantime, I think the 705 ops will be fine, while the 703/704 ops may suffer, safety-wise.

EC

[Cat Driver]

. Cat will still hate TC.

It never ceases to amaze me just how myopic people are when reading my thoughts on T.C.

Please get it straight.....I do not hate T.C. quite to the contrary, I have always been pro T.C. for the simple fact the industry must have a regulator.

I hate corrupt T.C. officials who pervert the meaning of just and fair over sight of the industry and have named those who are corrupt.....starting with the present DGCA and the Regional Director Civil Aviation here in the Pacific Region.

So how does that equate to my hating T.C.?

[Axial Flow]

Some of the replies imply poor judgment on the pilot's parts by simply quoting Hedley's review of the driving conditions at the time. Nothing against Hedley's descriptions or choices for driving in those conditions but is that a good backbone for stating they were idiots and forming your opinion why they went off the end ? Why don't you get some "actual" info before coming to a conclusion ?

[lilfssister]

Not to mention the concentration of vehicles cleaning a mile+ of runway as opposed to how many miles of highway with less?

[co-joe]

We landed in YOW about a half hour before WJ. I can vouch that the conditions were balls. When we were shutting down, the Capt feathered the props and the plane slid backwards. Quite the ice rink.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of plane feathers into reverse? I've had the plane move forward when we feathered on a slippery ramp, never backwards.

[co-joe]

Which raises my controversial question asked earlier that nobody seems to want to touch. Does anybody think this might become an increasing trend across the board with all carriers given the rapid movement of flight crews that is occurring? Any chance this is a result of the lowering experience levels? If these types of occurrences are indeed a result of lower experience levels I would think a rise in occurrences at the 703 level will quickly become evident this spring.

Just my opinion, but I don't think this is a big issue (the 705 part anyway...I agree that the 703 experience pool is becoming shallower and will have an impact on safety). I don't think it's very likely that there will be captains on the heavy iron who aren't plenty experienced. However, with less experienced FOs, perhaps the captains will just have to be more prepared to scrap the approach if it isn't bang on the numbers. Plus, with the way aviation is, it'll be a few more years (let's hope longer!) and we'll be back to people with 3000 hours not being able to find work on a King Air because folks with 4000 hours will be taking the jobs. Then when the boom starts again, it'll take 5000 hours to get on at Jazz (remember 2004/2005?). Then 4000...then 3000...2000...1500....and we're back to our present situation. In fact, I'd say we'll still be on here, all a little more aged and crusty, yelling at the new kids telling them not to buy PPCs or work for free. TonySoprano and the WJ folks will still be comparing T4s/profit sharing/schedules (hopefully I'll be able to add $0.02 to either side). Cat will still hate TC. Doc will still hate SEIFR. Valcore will still hate AC. C-HRIS will still love MacGuyver (who doesn't???). Someone will still be looking for their headset soul mate. Companies will still be posting their jobs with "Pay - as per company matrix". lol...have I missed anything?

Wow that took a hard left.....I guess what I'm trying to say is that this cycle will only last for so long, then we won't have to worry about inexperienced folks advancing beyond their abilities. In the meantime, I think the 705 ops will be fine, while the 703/704 ops may suffer, safety-wise.

EC

Good post.

[inuit32]

ok

[WJ700]

Holy shit it's getting hard to read some of this crap. The two guys up front we VERY experienced. They both have fine backgrounds with plenty of time flying, on ashpault, on the water, and on gravel, grass and skiis... both are well liked and can share a beer and tell stories with the best of them. (and yes, I've been friends with them for a long time at WestJet and at my previous employers)
There are also a couple of glaring details that are missing here... I know some, but obviously I'm not at liberty to say. Just wait for the final report before you start slicing up someone who has done more than their share for the industry and have earned their seats.

Sometimes you're just delt the band hand in the game we play every day.

rant over.

[WJ700]

Dear ASPHALT pilots !!!

westjet went off the runway with less than 7 kts crosswind , Who care about the CRFI !

You guys never land on ice runways. 100% BARE ice. 727, 737, C-130, CV580, 748, dh-8 does it in day to day operation. its accomplished by average pilots.

Those Average Pilot make it happen because they care more about aerodynamics than their shoe shine!

ICE and CRFI is only a factor for SKILLess pilots. when a say skilless I mean basic stuff ...RUDDER and AILeron thats the basic guys! FROM the GROUND up....

An aircraft will go sideways only if you don`t or CANNOT control the drift.
Please explain me the effect of 7 knots Crosswind on a 737 !

If you decelerate with trust reverser, Who care about friction between the tires and the runway!

Flair is looking for First officer for their 737.. 1500TT !

This is an explaination...

Do you remember Jets GO...same thing, Several incident due to .....

To WESTJET pilots, I got lots of car plates for sale: It say ( GOD IS MY CO-PILOT ).....do you need one ?

cheers 1

And this has to be the biggest LOSER post I've read yet. Do you really think the Captain was born in a WestJet airplane??? Get some facts.

[carholme]

WJ700;

Good on you Sir, for sticking up for the crew.

It always amazes me how the experts on this forum are so willing to stick each other in the back about anything at the drop of a hat. Nobody here has a clue what happened yet but you can always count on the wizards at AvCanada to bury the knife right up to the hilt. God forbid anything ever happens to them.

I am sure the crew in question are under enough pressure at the moment but will appreciate the great AvCanada solidarity.

carholme

[mulligan]

We have a song here in NL which covers the YOW incident and many others. It's about a schooner captain who has an "incident" and these are the last three lines:

Sure an accident can happen to the best man any day
It's alright when the wheel is going up but when she turns for to go down
You all might meet with the same sad fate as Jim Harris in Paradise Sound.

That's the wheel of fortune if you hadn't guessed. This song is a cautionary tale for our industry and it's never far from my mind. If anyone wants the whole thing do a search for "Jim Harris" by The Punters.

[Troubleshot]

I seen in a few posts regarding this subject and guys refering to the just the thrust reversers on landing...the CFM56 TR is not THAT effective in stopping on its own. Most 737 pilots would agree that the -200's TR's were very effective but the -300,400,500 and the NG's TR's are only a small piece in stopping this jet.

I will wait till the offical report but I am interested in knowning the time factor on spoiler deployment in relation to how far they were down the runway.

[Hedley]

Nobody here has a clue what happened

As I said before, I was driving north to Ottawa - I live just
west - at the time. There was an overrunning warm front
from a system that was moving northeast out of the
midwest.

It was raining. South of Ottawa, the roads were above
freezing, and it was simply water on the road. But as
I drove north, I could start to see what looked like a bit
of slush on the road. But west of Ottawa, as I travelled
north, it happened - the road was cold enough so that
when the rain fell on it, it froze and formed clear ice.
The rain fell on top of it, and formed an extremely
slippery surface. The car was slithering around.

Landing on ice is no big deal. I suspect I've been
landing airplanes on ice before most people here
were born. But water on top of clear ice has
a coefficient of friction (mu) of around 0.02
if memory serves. It's difficult to even walk on,
and it can make taxiing with brakes only quite
difficult if there is any wind at all, because of the
weathervaning tendency. If there is any slope
to the surface, well, that makes it even more
sporty.

FWIW.

[KAG]

Dear ASPHALT pilots !!!

westjet went off the runway with less than 7 kts crosswind , Who care about the CRFI !

You guys never land on ice runways. 100% BARE ice. 727, 737, C-130, CV580, 748, dh-8 does it in day to day operation. its accomplished by average pilots.

Those Average Pilot make it happen because they care more about aerodynamics than their shoe shine!

ICE and CRFI is only a factor for SKILLess pilots. when a say skilless I mean basic stuff ...RUDDER and AILeron thats the basic guys! FROM the GROUND up....

An aircraft will go sideways only if you don`t or CANNOT control the drift.
Please explain me the effect of 7 knots Crosswind on a 737 !

If you decelerate with trust reverser, Who care about friction between the tires and the runway!

Flair is looking for First officer for their 737.. 1500TT !

This is an explaination...

Do you remember Jets GO...same thing, Several incident due to .....

To WESTJET pilots, I got lots of car plates for sale: It say ( GOD IS MY CO-PILOT ).....do you need one ?

cheers 1

Hero of the north…sorry inuit32
A large percentage of the Westjet crews are from northern ops companies, with all the "experience" you mentioned, probably more then you have judging from the maturity of your post. I don’t know what happened, nor am I going to speculate, but I dare say it was not due to a lack of experience and lack of basic stick and rudder skills. As for the FO's WJ is hiring of late, the average is still over 4000+hours, lots of turbine PIC and some (in some cases lots) 705 experience.
I really don't think experience or the lack there of played a role in this.

[Cat Driver]

WTF is wrong with some of you idiots?

Don't you think the crew and everyone else at West Jet feel bad enough already without you twisting the knife without knowing what happened?

Today it is them...tomorrow it could be you.

[ch135146]

WTF is wrong with some of you idiots?

Don't you think the crew and everyone else at West Jet feel bad enough already without you twisting the knife without knowing what happened?

Today it is them...tomorrow it could be you.

Ditto.