Teaching someone how to land

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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

One small point: you don't land a small aircraft. If you
attempt to force a small (eg nosewheel) aircraft to land
(eg at an excessive airspeed) you may end up running
down the runway on the nosewheel (wheelbarrowing)
or more likely, you will start to bounce/porpoise. The
reason for this goes back to the lift equation - if speed
is excessive, your AOA (and thus your nose) will be
too low.

What to do? Well, one thing you can do is go low
flying. For the rest of your career, you will be lectured
that low flying is sinful, and you should not do it. So
you might as well get some low flying in pre-solo,
when someone else is PIC :wink:

Set up an approach, but have no intention (or
psychological pressure) to land. Even though
COPA claims it's an airshow, have fun (remember,
you're not PIC - the instructor is).

Have your instructor call out altitude as you fly
low over the runway. This is an important
skill to develop. Do this a few times until you
get bored.

Next time around, set up for your low pass over
the runway, paying attention to your airspeed -
try to get it down to a normal approach speed.

It helps if the runway is really long. Right now,
where you touch down is not important. Work
on that later.

Anyways, set up for a low pass down the runway
at your normal approach speed. If you can get
it down to a foot or so, and can keep it there,
have your instructor pull all the power off, and
try to stop the aircraft from landing.

Yes, you DON'T land the aircraft. You try to
stop it from landing! You do this by pulling
gradually farther and farther back on the
yoke or stick, gradually increasing the angle
of attack as required to try to maintain lift
as speed decreases.

Of course, will power off, at some point
you simply won't be able to develop enough
lift to keep the airplane in the air, and it
will settle down nicely, on the mains first
in a nosewheel aircraft, and 3-point in a
tailwheel aircraft.

I should mention that every landing in
a nosewheel aircraft should be MAINS FIRST.

NEVER, EVER touch down on the nosewheel
first, and I strongly frown upon landing on
all 3 tires in a nosewheel aircraft, even though
that is a very common style.

Keep some daylight between the nosewheel
tire and the runway when you initially touch
down. It doesn't need to be much - a sixteenth
of an inch will do. As you slow down, the yoke
or stick comes all the way back, and all the
way over into any crosswind.

Main thing is to HAVE FUN! I cannot emphasize
this enough:

Have confidence in your ability to eventually
master landing an aircraft. A lot of people a
lot stupider than you have.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by BoostedNihilist »

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Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Tue May 04, 2010 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by _dwj_ »

tired of the ground wrote: All that crap that transport makes an instructor spew about ref/stall/whatever speeds changing with weight and c/g loading is crap. It changes so insignificantly until you start flying something 705 (12,500lbs and above, and even then probably not till you hit something substantially larger than 12.5). You have to know it to spew back when a DFTE asks but that is about as usefull as it will be for the first while.
For a typical training plane the stall speed will vary 5-10 knots depending on weight, which is certainly not insignificant.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Cat Driver »

For a typical training plane the stall speed will vary 5-10 knots depending on weight, which is certainly not insignificant.
What small airplane has a 10 knot differential in stall speed from minimum fuel with one pilot to all up gross weight?

I' m a little out of the loop with remembering the finer points about small trainers.
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

What small airplane has a 10 knot differential in
stall speed from minimum fuel with one pilot to all up gross weight?
From the lift equation, we can derive that:

Vs(W) = Vs(w) x sqrt(W/w)

Let's say we have an aircraft which is 1500 lbs with a 50 knot
stall speed. If we bump the weight up to 2200 lbs, the stall speed
is now:

Vs(2200) = Vs(1500) x sqrt(2200/1500)
Vs(2200) = 50 knots x 1.211
Vs(2200) = 60.5 knots

So it is possible, though I am doubtful that in the real world
you could really easily get such large variations in all-up weight
(1500 lbs vs 2200 lbs).

In practice, I find it helps to tell students to add 5 mph to
their approach speed in a four-seat trainer when they are
carrying a full load of pax - they are used to flying light (solo).

Keep it simple.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by _dwj_ »

Hedley wrote: So it is possible, though I am doubtful that in the real world
you could really easily get such large variations in all-up weight
(1500 lbs vs 2200 lbs).
Around 1600lbs is the typical weight of an early 172 with half tanks and one average size pilot vs 2200lbs gross, so that sounds about right.

Anyway, just read the handbook for your plane. Some of them have lots of graphs showing stall speed at different weights. But generally if you change your approach speed by about 5knots depending on weight you should be fine.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by 1000 HP »

I can't remember how to land anymore, it just happens :rolleyes:
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by ottawa,kan »

Learning to land was hard for me too. I think by the time I actually got my license I had 304 landings in my log book. The suggestion to fly down the runway NOT landing did help for me. Cat's suggestion of the instructor calling out the height to ground and video taping the landing sounds like great advice. To this day I want someone to video my taildragger landings. Some sure are better than others. But the key is don't get discouraged. It all happens in about 6 seconds and takes maybe 10 minutes to set up. So it's a drawn out process. And it's the only time that that 3rd dimension really has a price attached. Taking off, up is safety.
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

Around 1600lbs is the typical weight of an early 172 with half tanks and one average size pilot
Your 172's weigh less than all the ones I've ever flown.

I just grabbed a journey off the shelf for a 1975 C172 and
it's 1425 lbs empty. Add half tanks (20 gallons x 6 lbs/gal)
is 120 lbs, and a light 150 lb pilot, you get 1700 lbs, not
1500 lbs.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by _dwj_ »

Hedley wrote:
Around 1600lbs is the typical weight of an early 172 with half tanks and one average size pilot
Your 172's weigh less than all the ones I've ever flown.

I just grabbed a journey off the shelf for a 1975 C172 and
it's 1425 lbs empty. Add half tanks (20 gallons x 6 lbs/gal)
is 120 lbs, and a light 150 ** pilot, you get 1700 lbs, not
1500 lbs.
Mine's about 1330 empty. It's a 1960 model so it has less stuff in it than the later models. With 150lb pilot and 120lb fuel it's exactly 1600lbs, and gross is 2200.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by MyMeowCat »

Here's a creative idea -- say you're training at a place where training conditions/training quality/maintenance/weather is questionable (and which place might be developing a reputation as such) -- if you are on trip to some other city: drop by a flying club or school and see if you can get "supplemental" training on something whether it be landings, anything instrument, etc...

What would you instructors think if someone just dropped by your FTU saying "I not here to get a license nor am I staying here long -- but really need to figure out how that VOR thing with intercepting radials works..."?? In other words -- "my normal instructor doesn't give a crap, I need some help but I can't switch to your school because you're 300 miles away. I might be a crappy student as well -- but instead of a introduction flight or check-out -- how about helping me out with this thing instead"? :?
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by TC Guy »

tired of the ground wrote:At the beginning of my career I used to teach the end of the runway thing. The reason is because I didn't know any better and that was the crap that Transport Canada required to be taught to me. Now when I freelance, I teach the 400 feet version.
I would be interested to see the "crap reference" you refer to. Can you please provide this?

I am not defending whatever reference you refer to. I have no idea what it is. I am just curious.

I am sure you realize that there are many different ways to teach an exercise -- some work better for some Instructors (or students) and some do not. It is all about the connection you have with the student (after observing their performance) and what you have in your "bag of tricks".

tired of the ground wrote:There is a marked improvement between the students I used to teach and odd one I take now a days.
I am guessing you now have more experience. I would expect your students would benefit from that.

-Guy
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

I need some help but I can't switch to your school because you're 300 miles away -- how about helping me out with this <one> thing
Makes perfect sense to me. But most people will have a kitten
about it. Not really sure why. It's sort of like having sex - most
people think it's scandalous if you try to switch around. They
think you should be "faithful" to your first ab initio instructor,
which is simply nonsense.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by _dwj_ »

MyMeowCat wrote:Here's a creative idea -- say you're training at a place where training conditions/training quality/maintenance/weather is questionable (and which place might be developing a reputation as such) -- if you are on trip to some other city: drop by a flying club or school and see if you can get "supplemental" training on something whether it be landings, anything instrument, etc...

What would you instructors think if someone just dropped by your FTU saying "I not here to get a license nor am I staying here long -- but really need to figure out how that VOR thing with intercepting radials works..."?? In other words -- "my normal instructor doesn't give a crap, I need some help but I can't switch to your school because you're 300 miles away. I might be a crappy student as well -- but instead of a introduction flight or check-out -- how about helping me out with this thing instead"? :?
It's perfectly fine to try a different school/instructor. It's probably best not to bitch about your previous instructor/school. Just book a lesson and go flying.

The only issue is if you are training for your initial license I think the flying school has to keep records and submit it when you apply for your license, so I'm not sure how it works if you change schools or do a few lessons somewhere else. You might just want to inquire about that.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by MichaelP »

I don't think how you teach a person to land has anything at all to do with Transport Canada!
There's no point in TC bashing on this thread....

From my point of view there's no one way to teach a person to land, and I don't think you teach a person to land more than give the student guidance towards his/her enlightenment!

But what I do expect from instructors is the abilitiy to pull different tools out of their experience box to be able to fit their guidance to the student's character.

In China we were somewhat stuck with the 141 business which spelled out the type of landing and its method of approach we were supposed to teach the student.
I became a firm believer in teaching the PPL by Part 61, and CPL by Part 141 (FAA/CAAC approved methods).
'Part 61' style is what most of us do in Canada.

I come back to Canada, and the school has got standardised lesson plans... I'm given a student in difficulty, would I see if I could sort his landings out?

Flapless he was having trouble, OK, let's see 20 degree flap approaches, 'what?'... I brief...
"OK this time we'll just add a little power and see how long you can hold it off".... :?
The student had only seen flapless landings, and as I wrote before, these are not easy to begin with in the Cessna 152.
I talked to the instructor and asked why the student had not seen flap landings,only flapless...
"I'm doing it to the approved *** lesson plans" he said!

A good instructor will find the type of landing approach that enables the student to achieve some success.
Sometimes we have to do what might come later earlier so that the student makes progress.
As instructors we're supposed to find something positive in every learning experience and we're not supposed to demoralise the student.
With 20 degrees of flap, and operating outside of the school's lesson plan, this student progressed to solo.
Part 61, and the way we do it in Canada allows us to deviate from the plan if it means we can progress the student. We can come back to flapless landings later.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Invertago »

Why is it that some students think you are insulting their height when you suggest they try sitting on a pillow when they fly? If you switch to instruments in the flare you are going to have a hard time learning to land. Big waste of money to finally decide a pillow is a good idea after several lessons in the circuit.
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

I talked to the instructor and asked why the student had not seen flap landings,only flapless... "I'm doing it to the approved *** lesson plans" he said!
I've never understood why so many people are so
dogmatic about the use of flaps in light trainers.

Some people say students must always use full (!)
flaps for landings. Some people say students must
always use NO flap for landings.

How some people can get so wound up about
something so obscure is just freaking bizarre.

Heck, go fly a cub.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by MichaelP »

I've never understood why so many people are so dogmatic about the use of flaps in light trainers.
I'm not dogmatic, I just believe in doing what works best for the regular student during the initial stages.
I think a student should be capable of doing landings with any combination of flaps or no flaps, and power off, and on (Soft field) before that student goes solo.

I do not believe it takes long to teach a student to land with or without flaps once that student has achieved a successful landing a few times by using whatever method the instructor has succeeded in enlightening the student with.

The Cub vs Cessna 152 like the Aerknocker vs the Cessna 152 argument is not a valid one.
The Cub and Champ were designed without flaps, and you have a good view over the nose on approach just like a Cessna 152 power off and with 20 degrees flap selected.
Flapless the Cessna 152 does not have as good a view over the nose as the Cub and Champ, and even with the correct eye height (level with the top of the side window) the point of zero movement is very close to the top of the cowling in a C152.
In both the Cub and Champ, in the glide, the point of zero movement is right in the middle of the screen.

In the Pitts you can't see much, but we don't do ab-initio training in S2s very often and teaching yourself in an S1 is not advisable :shock:

You should see what flapless is like in our C1... with a fantastic glide ratio and slippery airframe it takes careful planning to pull off a decent flapless approach.
Go five knots faster, and you need a runway suitable for Concorde!
The Katana is a lot better with a constant speed airbrake on the nose.

Many instructors are not aware their students sit too low, and new instructors especially combine the flapless approach with 70 KIAS and sometimes with power.
It's natural for students and pilots in general to dislike floating along a runway, seeing the far end get closer and then be tempted to plonk the aeroplane down right now!
No aeroplane will land before it is ready....
I use 60 KIAS flapless in the C152, and 55 to 60 KIAS with flaps unless there's a gusty wind.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by sky's the limit »

Regardless of what you're trying to teach, landing, sports, or school, it's the experience of the teacher in the given field, the experience of the teacher in teaching, and understanding that it can take five or six different ways to present the same information in order for a particular student to grasp the concept.

Just my experience in coaching sport.

stl
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by MichaelP »

it can take five or six different ways to present the same information in order for a particular student to grasp the concept.
You should hear how many ways I have explained Va these past two days 8)
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by MyMeowCat »

Thanks guys for all the helpful input -- I'll pitch it to my instructors and try a different approach. I've done about 9 hours in the circuit (although spread through out a month and a half) but it was always the same routine...I agree with the posters that it might take 6 different ways of explaining it before someone gets it. If you keep repeating yourself to a student -- they'll keep repeating the same result.

I wouldn't say 9 hours is too much since you actually learn a lot about the circuit like:

a) Radio calls by ATC -- I don't know how you guys learned your radio calls. I didn't have it covered in my ground school. And the briefings I had were quite basic. I had problems listening/understanding fast talking controllers. I got around this by buying a transceiver and parking out at the end of the runway while listening to ATC and studying circuit traffic. I learned more that way than from instructors about radio work.

b) Looking for traffic and developing experience on where to exactly look. At the place I'm at you can go from number 2 to number 8 in a matter of minutes. Your downwind can extend out 2 miles more than normal as taught in the text books.

c) When turning crosswind, downwind -- wind can catch your wing and tip you dangerously close to a steep turn (spiral if you're not careful).

d) Your approach can be any angle and at VARIABLE wind direction/speed -- So if you almost got it the last time -- the next touch and go may be different because the wind may change at each touch and go.

e) ATC can alter the height you turn crosswind/downwind/base etc. so it's not as basic as the FTM describes it. They can also alter your speed and heading.

I'm not sure where you guys trained at but I would say letting someone solo at 15 hrs total training time is a bit dangerous. I'd say at least 15 hrs in the circuit. It'll take a student a while to master the circuit related radio calls/ATC, watch for traffic, master the emergency procedures, ect. :?
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

I would say letting someone solo at 15 hrs total training time is a bit dangerous
Huh? 15 hours is plenty. It depends upon the student, the airplane
and the airport.

I think I soloed in 2.4 hours (no typo - less than two and a half hours
of dual) in a tailwheel aircraft, on pavement (grass is a LOT easier
for tailwheel).

I can dig out my first logbook and check if you want. That included
spin training, btw. How much spin training have you received so far?
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by sky's the limit »

MyMeowCat wrote:
I'm not sure where you guys trained at but I would say letting someone solo at 15 hrs total training time is a bit dangerous. I'd say at least 15 hrs in the circuit. It'll take a student a while to master the circuit related radio calls/ATC, watch for traffic, master the emergency procedures, ect. :?
I soloed at 9hrs - still here.

Back in WW2 and probably beyond, the RAF washed guys out if they didn't solo a Tiger Moth in 7hrs.

It's all to do with the method you're being taught, and the aptitude of the student, nothing dangerous about it.

stl
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Hedley
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by Hedley »

It's all to do with the method you're being taught, and the aptitude of the student, nothing dangerous about it.
Right. If you have a very organized and experienced instructor,
and sharp, motivated young student (esp with previous flying
experience - eg glider or unlogged, bootleg instruction) and a
gentle cow of trainer aircraft with no nasty characteristics, and
a quiet airport with a nice long runway, you can count on a solo
after a couple of hours.

However. If you have a young, inexperienced, disorganized
instructor, and a lazy student that doesn't do any reading,
and if the student is a little older and doesn't learn as fast
as he used to, and he's never seen an aircraft before - or
possibly any motorized vehicle - and you've got a lousy
trainer aircraft and a very busy airport, well, 50 hours to
solo would not be surprising. You've got a lot of work
ahead of you.

It's different for everyone. I have soloed students in
Cessna buck fifties and I have soloed students in the
Pitts. Comparing the two is worthless, because most
licensed pilots will never possess the skill to land a Pitts.
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Re: Teaching someone how to land

Post by dangerous »

MyMeowCat wrote:I'm not sure where you guys trained at but I would say letting someone solo at 15 hrs total training time is a bit dangerous. I'd say at least 15 hrs in the circuit. It'll take a student a while to master the circuit related radio calls/ATC, watch for traffic, master the emergency procedures, ect. :?
Well I guess I must be a bit dangerous then because I soloed in less than 10 hours. Wait a sec, my name is dangerous so I guess you're right. I don't know what my instructor was thinking when he launched me on my first solo with less than 10 hours on a calm clear day with no traffic in a simple nose dragger trainer after receiving excellent training. Boy oh boy, was I ever an accident waiting to happen.
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