That’s not exactly true as AC is the biggest user and payer of the system. Without AC paying the majority of the bill NavCan would cease to exist in its’ present form as no one could afford the cost of its services..
The paint job and Celine are the result of a international marketing strategy endorsed by many business's and fairly common in the business world..
Celine Dion sings for Air Canada...
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
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Hey Rebel, not to start a pissing match with you but could you tell me what percentage of their total bill to Nav Canada Air Canada paid, so I can deduct that percent from my fees?
Cat
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Pindunder Jeep
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Funny posts! Everyone seems to have a different opinion here. I just came back from the Vancouver debut. The paint job sucks and I am not sure that Celine is the answer. A broken down car with a new paint job is just that. I wish I could say that we were lean and mean but I can't. I still see the same management team doing what they do best.
As an employee, I can tell you I did not appreciate my wage consessions going to this. In the media, it is supposed to be a thank you to the employees. What crap! Milton is a dork and hated by everyone! The rumour at AC is that he is on his way to Delta. I would love to hold the door open for him.
On a better note, the Embrarer is a slick machine.
As an employee, I can tell you I did not appreciate my wage consessions going to this. In the media, it is supposed to be a thank you to the employees. What crap! Milton is a dork and hated by everyone! The rumour at AC is that he is on his way to Delta. I would love to hold the door open for him.
On a better note, the Embrarer is a slick machine.
Looks good on paper, but will it fly?
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Cat Driver
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Rebel, I have always tried to stay netural in the Air Canada debacle.
The reason being that to many of my colleagues are as much victims as anyone else in this miserable profession.
So let me rephrase my post so as not to rile you up for no reason.
In that my company also has suffered a crippling loss due to circumstanses beyond my control, could I get back some of my Nav Canada fees?
I am on your side as far as my symphthy goes, I just do not however have it in my heart to defend Milton and his ilk...
O.K.?
Cat
The reason being that to many of my colleagues are as much victims as anyone else in this miserable profession.
So let me rephrase my post so as not to rile you up for no reason.
In that my company also has suffered a crippling loss due to circumstanses beyond my control, could I get back some of my Nav Canada fees?
I am on your side as far as my symphthy goes, I just do not however have it in my heart to defend Milton and his ilk...
O.K.?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat
First things first, I don’t have the expertise or knowledge to provide you with useful input regarding your personal dilemma. However I would think that you should have the same protection under the law as any other business and as such should be able to apply for a let on your fee’s. All they can say is no, and you’ve heard that word many times in your career.
On the second note I’m no fan of Milton however I don’t think there’s anyone else out there. Besides do we really want to go through another learning curve? Modern day aviation has gone down the tubes but in reality we’re just following what’s happened to industry all over the western world. The Wal-Mart way of doing things has captured the imagation of the world but can the aviation world survive this fad. I don’t think so as our business is not like any other business. I suspect when the body count gets high enough folks will begin to understand.
Cheers
Reb
First things first, I don’t have the expertise or knowledge to provide you with useful input regarding your personal dilemma. However I would think that you should have the same protection under the law as any other business and as such should be able to apply for a let on your fee’s. All they can say is no, and you’ve heard that word many times in your career.
On the second note I’m no fan of Milton however I don’t think there’s anyone else out there. Besides do we really want to go through another learning curve? Modern day aviation has gone down the tubes but in reality we’re just following what’s happened to industry all over the western world. The Wal-Mart way of doing things has captured the imagation of the world but can the aviation world survive this fad. I don’t think so as our business is not like any other business. I suspect when the body count gets high enough folks will begin to understand.
Cheers
Reb
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Pindunder Jeep
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Hi Rebel
What am I doing to be lean? Well for starters, we laid off 180 guys so I rolled downhill with that. Lost my left seat, increased productivity by doing sims and annual recurrent training on my own time and then took a 20% paycut, to mention just a few.
None of which I mind, if the company would fundamentally change its bad habits. I take it personally when I see money given up by employees, lessors, and creditors ( such as Nav Canada ) pissed away so extravagantly in our faces. It has Milton arrogance written all over it!!!
How many times did Milton try to bonus himself during this fiasco while expecting everyone to take a haircut? When I say everyone, I don't just mean the employees. I am also beginning to wonder if he owns a paint shop somewhere. I have never seen so many different paint jobs in such a short span of time!
There is a poster in the Vancouver Flt Ops center that states " $100 saved is the equivilant to adding 7 passengers to a flight" Think about that for a second!
I dunno...........sometimes I wonder what happened to common sense.
Cheers.
What am I doing to be lean? Well for starters, we laid off 180 guys so I rolled downhill with that. Lost my left seat, increased productivity by doing sims and annual recurrent training on my own time and then took a 20% paycut, to mention just a few.
None of which I mind, if the company would fundamentally change its bad habits. I take it personally when I see money given up by employees, lessors, and creditors ( such as Nav Canada ) pissed away so extravagantly in our faces. It has Milton arrogance written all over it!!!
How many times did Milton try to bonus himself during this fiasco while expecting everyone to take a haircut? When I say everyone, I don't just mean the employees. I am also beginning to wonder if he owns a paint shop somewhere. I have never seen so many different paint jobs in such a short span of time!
There is a poster in the Vancouver Flt Ops center that states " $100 saved is the equivilant to adding 7 passengers to a flight" Think about that for a second!
I dunno...........sometimes I wonder what happened to common sense.
Cheers.
Last edited by Pindunder Jeep on Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Looks good on paper, but will it fly?
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Cat Driver
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I was being facetious Rebel.
I could care less about a refund from the few bucks I've paid Nav Caanda, ( but I wouldn't mind getting a rebate from the tens of thousands I have paid in foreign countries ferrying aircraft )
Anyhow I hope everyone pulls through this restructuring of all the Airlines but I don't think we will ever get back to the way things were.
Are we friends again? Wave
Cat.
I could care less about a refund from the few bucks I've paid Nav Caanda, ( but I wouldn't mind getting a rebate from the tens of thousands I have paid in foreign countries ferrying aircraft )
Anyhow I hope everyone pulls through this restructuring of all the Airlines but I don't think we will ever get back to the way things were.
Are we friends again? Wave
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Pindunder Jeep
This was posted on flyertalk by an AC frequent flyer named "Shareholder" regarding Celine Dion.
He/She holds Aeroplan SuperElite status.
But Dion represents the perfect messenger for AC's marketing objectives:
1. She is both French Canadian and English. This further blunts the Blocheads who are insisting the airline is going to bolt from its Montreal HQ and forget about Quebec
2. She can appeal to both English and French customers in Canada and thus makes it possible to sell AC with a single campaign [unlike Shania who would require a Quebec/French alternative]
3. She is a world-known celebrity identified with Canada, so makes AC's international marketing push more accessible in many overseas markets [even at the height of the Fish Dispute with Spain, her six-story high visage was featured on the side of el Corte Ingles, the giant Madrid department store, looking out over Place del Sol]
4. She brings some glitz and glamour [well, okay that's subjective] to the airline and proved this by securing the media coverage it did; just as Jackie Chan presents a certain image to CX in its overseas campaigns
There are few other Canadian celebrities that can cut across so many variables when it comes to marketing. Why did she bomb for Chrysler? Primarily it was a product and maybe not one many people wanted, so there was no natural affinity between Dion and that product. [Also, people forget it was part of a wider campaign that also featured Diana Krall.] What other Canadian celebrity could AC go for who did this? Gretzky: while he may be well known among sports fans, he is hardly known in many parts of the world where AC will be agressively courting new customers. Avril and Shania are too niche market, as is Sarah McLaughlan. Eric McCormack, er well...good cross-over, but still limited to NAmerica. Pamela what's her name?
Anyhow, one never convinces everybody, so...
This was posted on flyertalk by an AC frequent flyer named "Shareholder" regarding Celine Dion.
He/She holds Aeroplan SuperElite status.
But Dion represents the perfect messenger for AC's marketing objectives:
1. She is both French Canadian and English. This further blunts the Blocheads who are insisting the airline is going to bolt from its Montreal HQ and forget about Quebec
2. She can appeal to both English and French customers in Canada and thus makes it possible to sell AC with a single campaign [unlike Shania who would require a Quebec/French alternative]
3. She is a world-known celebrity identified with Canada, so makes AC's international marketing push more accessible in many overseas markets [even at the height of the Fish Dispute with Spain, her six-story high visage was featured on the side of el Corte Ingles, the giant Madrid department store, looking out over Place del Sol]
4. She brings some glitz and glamour [well, okay that's subjective] to the airline and proved this by securing the media coverage it did; just as Jackie Chan presents a certain image to CX in its overseas campaigns
There are few other Canadian celebrities that can cut across so many variables when it comes to marketing. Why did she bomb for Chrysler? Primarily it was a product and maybe not one many people wanted, so there was no natural affinity between Dion and that product. [Also, people forget it was part of a wider campaign that also featured Diana Krall.] What other Canadian celebrity could AC go for who did this? Gretzky: while he may be well known among sports fans, he is hardly known in many parts of the world where AC will be agressively courting new customers. Avril and Shania are too niche market, as is Sarah McLaughlan. Eric McCormack, er well...good cross-over, but still limited to NAmerica. Pamela what's her name?
Anyhow, one never convinces everybody, so...
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centerstored
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sprucemonkey
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I got some pics of the latest a.c. but haven't downloaded them so I can only see them on my PC.
Just think though..... do you really want AC to fail and have WJ be the end all and be all of CANADIAN AVIATION.
Hell, you'd have to wait in line for christmas hampers in YYC for three years before you'd be able to deliver ONE and there's your stock options. Blows goats, don't it!
Just think though..... do you really want AC to fail and have WJ be the end all and be all of CANADIAN AVIATION.
Hell, you'd have to wait in line for christmas hampers in YYC for three years before you'd be able to deliver ONE and there's your stock options. Blows goats, don't it!
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Pindunder Jeep
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Rebel
You have some good points but this is what I think is really going on.
Milton is simply posturing for his departure. AC comes out of CCA, has a big bash and publicity stunt like Celine. Milton is seen as the man to pull AC out of the ashes and will leave on a high note. He doesn't care what happens in the long run as he is on his way back to his hometown as Chief Restructuring Officer of Delta Airlines.
Just my prediction, if it holds true, you owe me a beer! Deal?
Cheers.
You have some good points but this is what I think is really going on.
Milton is simply posturing for his departure. AC comes out of CCA, has a big bash and publicity stunt like Celine. Milton is seen as the man to pull AC out of the ashes and will leave on a high note. He doesn't care what happens in the long run as he is on his way back to his hometown as Chief Restructuring Officer of Delta Airlines.
Just my prediction, if it holds true, you owe me a beer! Deal?
Cheers.
Looks good on paper, but will it fly?
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scubasteve
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golden hawk
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Pindunder Jeep
Personally I wouldn’t have spent the money on Celine or a new paint job but I can understand why they are doing it. Besides the marketing side of it I wouldn’t be surprised if certain major shareholders probably forced the issue and AC management went along with it in order to secure the the financing. Milton is not stupid he knew that there would be employee reaction to the plan but I don’t think he had any other choice.
As far as Milton going to Delta, just another rumor as no one in their right mind would want to get involved in the US majors dog fight that's is going to take place. When the dust settles down south there will probably be only a couple of majors left the rest having either merged with the others or simply gone out of business because their unions never got on side. The US blood bath is going to make the AC restructuring look like a tea party.
Cheers..
Personally I wouldn’t have spent the money on Celine or a new paint job but I can understand why they are doing it. Besides the marketing side of it I wouldn’t be surprised if certain major shareholders probably forced the issue and AC management went along with it in order to secure the the financing. Milton is not stupid he knew that there would be employee reaction to the plan but I don’t think he had any other choice.
As far as Milton going to Delta, just another rumor as no one in their right mind would want to get involved in the US majors dog fight that's is going to take place. When the dust settles down south there will probably be only a couple of majors left the rest having either merged with the others or simply gone out of business because their unions never got on side. The US blood bath is going to make the AC restructuring look like a tea party.
Cheers..
AC did cost taxpayers
Look at it this way. Anytime a company goes bankrupt we all lose. It's simple. They don't pay the creditors/outstanding debt. That means the general public pays more for bank fees and every other service we buy to make up for the loss. Banks/creditors don't forgive companies for going bankrupt. The risk is made up by higher user fees, loan interest rates etc. The money will be made up by someone (ie you and me each time we use a debit card or buy a good/service). The bad debt doesn't vanish. If half of Canada was to go bankrupt tomorrow don't tell me that the loan rates wouldn't triple. Yes. We all pay for these mistakes. The companies that got .10$ on the dollar will find other areas to make this up. Higher cateringfuel/NavCan fees to all airlines etc. We pay for it one way or another.
And. Why does the new AC need a makeover? I understand glamour but Southwest is as bland as WestJet yet they seem to be focused on providing a simple, low cost service -- while making money.
I have the highest respect for the AC pilots here. I just don't think the new strategy will do anything. As I've learnt in economics many times over, the majority of ppl, as profit maximizers use price to decide. The marketing money should of been used to payback the old creditors, customer service reps, lower ticket prices, or for a rainy day when the economy slows down - which it will. Consider this. Say a new startup with all white planes, ugly uniforms and no food service offers a seat to CXYZ at 125$ while AC is at 139$. I know where the pax will go. Even when I was a frequent corporate traveller, the company would pick the lowest rates. My old firm was ALWAYS on AC, to the point where the AC staff knew us by name (i miss those cockpit visits on the ground), now they are always on WJ. They don't care about meals, nice uniforms, marketing, the bottom line was cost (down to the last 5$). As long as AC can deliver the same profit margin as WJ while spending more on marketing then I'm proven wrong. Time will tell.
And. Why does the new AC need a makeover? I understand glamour but Southwest is as bland as WestJet yet they seem to be focused on providing a simple, low cost service -- while making money.
I have the highest respect for the AC pilots here. I just don't think the new strategy will do anything. As I've learnt in economics many times over, the majority of ppl, as profit maximizers use price to decide. The marketing money should of been used to payback the old creditors, customer service reps, lower ticket prices, or for a rainy day when the economy slows down - which it will. Consider this. Say a new startup with all white planes, ugly uniforms and no food service offers a seat to CXYZ at 125$ while AC is at 139$. I know where the pax will go. Even when I was a frequent corporate traveller, the company would pick the lowest rates. My old firm was ALWAYS on AC, to the point where the AC staff knew us by name (i miss those cockpit visits on the ground), now they are always on WJ. They don't care about meals, nice uniforms, marketing, the bottom line was cost (down to the last 5$). As long as AC can deliver the same profit margin as WJ while spending more on marketing then I'm proven wrong. Time will tell.
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just another pilot
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Re: AC did cost taxpayers
the thing is... a lot of people do. of course folks are going to naturally gravitate towards the cheapest fares... but if they're unhappy with the service they won't go back. i don't think that the lcc philosophy applies so well to long-haul flights, either. and businessmen aren't going to relish being packed in with a bunch of yo-yos wearing ripped jeans and being given only peanuts or little crunchy whatnots.172pilot wrote:They don't care about meals, nice uniforms...
the lcc idea obviously has merit and appeals to a lot of folks... but not all flights are hour-long rides on the bus and the phenomenon will not, in my opinion, spell the demise of all legacy airlines...
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scubasteve
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I think she'd like to sit beside Celine as well 
if you know what I mean haha
There's also some of this talked about in the Misc Forum under a similar topic. AC doesnt have to compete head to head against WestJet or JetsGo in all markets. They have to decide to go for the prices that will compete or try to brand themselves as offering more...sure you may pay more but you'll get a meal and more leg room...On some routes they might have to cut back. I just think they try to do too much and want to be everything to everyone. If they picked certain market segments and stuck to them they can be successful but they have a history of going after the competition in the competition's strong areas...doesnt make sense to me.
if you know what I mean hahaThere's also some of this talked about in the Misc Forum under a similar topic. AC doesnt have to compete head to head against WestJet or JetsGo in all markets. They have to decide to go for the prices that will compete or try to brand themselves as offering more...sure you may pay more but you'll get a meal and more leg room...On some routes they might have to cut back. I just think they try to do too much and want to be everything to everyone. If they picked certain market segments and stuck to them they can be successful but they have a history of going after the competition in the competition's strong areas...doesnt make sense to me.
