Getting out of the bond???

[SQ]

This is a perfect example of the positive reasons for a union or an 'association.' Who else is looking after us? If we were truckers or trainmen we would have government assistance and legislation, but our government does not think that we exist and allowing these conditions to continue in the 21st century proves that they don't give a sh*t.

more seriously this is the most realistic and efficient way to get rid of those bond and obtain decent wages where it is necessary.

[double-j]

Food for thought..

Perhaps in the future, those who are faced with a bond as condition of employment can attach an appendix to the bond with the same conditions outlined on the alpa site. Then you would have protection from said violations. If the want you bad enough they will accept it, if not move on.

jmho.

[double-j]

Think of it as your "counter offer."

[Meatservo]

Let's get one thing straight here pal, you don't know me, and if you did you would keep your mouth shut.

People like yourself that hound posters for their spelling and grammer have far to much time on their hands.

Same goes for you .

Tough talk in an anonymous forum. Would I keep my mouth shut because I would like you? You know what, I don't care about your spelling or your grammar. Maybe you've noticed I only pick on people who seem to take themselves too seriously, or who, in your case, deserve to be seriously annoyed. It worked. The world is full of agressive undereducated blustering boobs like you seem to be, spouting off about their own moral superiority, even though they can't even spell it, and then losing it when someone else gives them a bit of agg. And what's this "same goes for you, ." horseshit? You gonna beat him up too? You're the guy that came on here calling someone else an idiot. Go polish your gold wings, city boy. If you can't take a shot I don't have any more time for you. You should apologise to the guy you insulted and then go to bed.

Everyone else, sorry to have been the guy to hijack the thread with this stupidity.

[Lurch]

Let's get one thing straight here pal, you don't know me, and if you did you would keep your mouth shut.

People like yourself that hound posters for their spelling and grammer have far to much time on their hands.

Same goes for you .

Tough talk in an anonymous forum. Would I keep my mouth shut because I would like you? You know what, I don't care about your spelling or your grammar. Maybe you've noticed I only pick on people who seem to take themselves too seriously, or who, in your case, deserve to be seriously annoyed. It worked. The world is full of agressive undereducated blustering boobs like you seem to be, spouting off about their own moral superiority, even though they can't even spell it, and then losing it when someone else gives them a bit of agg. And what's this "same goes for you, ." horseshit? You gonna beat him up too? You're the guy that came on here calling someone else an idiot. Go polish your gold wings, city boy. If you can't take a shot I don't have any more time for you. You should apologise to the guy you insulted and then go to bed.

Everyone else, sorry to have been the guy to hijack the thread with this stupidity.

Wow Meat you must be fazed I can't believe your atrocious spelling today.

Lurch

[Mig29]

I dont know where and when my thread got sideline, but thanks to those who replyed and posted that link.

Btw...I left the place already...and the thing is, the Ppc I received was a "freebie" from the aircraft manufacturer, because, the owner who bought the NEW a/c received 2 free PPC tickets at fligthsafety...so the company who ran his a/c didn't pay a penny for me (besides hotel and airfare)!!

So, I am wondering, if I technically owe them (company) anything at all (besides hotel and airfare)???

[visual approach]

Thats where that link explains things well. If the company spent X amount on your training, you (in theory) should owe them NO MORE than that amount. Otherwise it is you paying for the job and not a training bond at all.

[Meatservo]

Oh... the free caravan thing? Well, I can't see that you should be on the hook for more than they actually spent on you. Unless they're going to try and say you cost them the replacement cost of a new pilot by quitting. If they try to take you to court, the thing to focus on would be anything they did that broke any law, or was more unreasonable than standard practice, something that a reasonable person couldn't be expected to put up with.

Lurch, I owe you a beer.

[visual approach]

training bonds are just that. They can't say that you quitting would have cost us X amount of money if we would have paid for your training, which we didn't. Why don't they also add in the cost that it will cost them to advertise for a new pilot and the wages they need to pay themselves to interview a new guy. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I love this bit from the poster who called us idiots.

I am one of a few people on here that loves my job as a pilot, I stand up for this occupation time and time again. I work hard for my employer and I love what I do.

Come back here and let us know how much you love your job as a pilot after you have enough time in the industry to understand it.

""" I love what I do """

With that mindset you are going to be really raped in this industry.

[sky's the limit]

I posted this same thing on a thread a year or two ago about bonds, but I can't find it...

Basically, the one and only time I have faced a Bond situation, I refused to sign it. Asked "why" by me CP at the time, I simply replied that there was "nothing in it for me, other than an endorsement, no guarantees of income, hours, schedule." He asked me what I'd like to see written in before I signed, so I gave him a re-written version including those areas listed above.

He agreed, I signed a two way contract, something for him (guaranteed term), and something for me (guaranteed income etc.). Worked out nicely.

None of these discussions should be based on people trying to weasel out of Bonds, but if there are geniune cases of mistreatment, then by all means leave. I'll hire you on principal alone. But before you sign a bond on a nice shiny big a/c, stop and think about the realities of what you're doing and make sure you get what you need.

stl

[PilotFlying]

...let us know how much you love your job as a pilot after you have enough time in the industry to understand it.

It's not very often that I disagree with you, Cat, nor do I often speak up on this forum. But in this case I must do both.

There are plenty of people in this business that understand full well how it works, but continue to love it. I can't tell you how many people I know that have retired after a 30+ year career in the business and loved it to the very last hour. There are companies out there who try and take advantage of new pilots, no doubt, but are these scum bags really limited to aviation? Doubtful. There will always be scam artists out there. Be aware, and don't agree to anything you're uncomfortable with.

Just thought I'd throw that out there so that the few rookies who lurk this forum for mentorship aren't completed disgusted.

Regarding the bond, my opinion has always been that if you're willing to put your signature on the dotted line, you are responsible for respecting the terms you signed to. Legalities of the bond aside, your signature represents your word. Don't stand behind it, it will start to have less and less value. That is why it is important to make sure there is as much detail as possible to avoid any holes in the terminology from being used against you. In the circumstance at hand, it sounds like the operator is using one of these holes to extend the term of the bond, which is cheap. Sounds like a sour deal, but without the explicit wording to cover this situation, it could be argued both ways. Nevertheless, a crappy deal for Mig29. Best of luck, my friend.

Regards,

[just curious]

MIG29,

You've ramped, instructed, and gotten onto a turbine machine, and gotten, apparently, on with the 705 airline you wanted to get on with a couple years ago. You applied for it knowing you had signed a bond. Why then is any of this a surprise?

You can either pay it, or hire a lawyer to fight it. But if your old employer had you flying the aircraft you bonded for, you have little hope of getting out of it.

You may have taken all the steps necessary to address your situation before you left your employer, in whcih case, good luck in your suit, which morally you deserve to win. OR you may have just applied to your new company until they said yes, and bailed, leaving your employer scrambling. If this is the case, then you are simply an example of the ones who make it hard for the rest of us.

I've never met you as far as I know, so I really can't say one way or the other. But it's pretty binary.

[Mig29]

I gave my ex-employer proper 2 weeks notice, did my full year, so the bond I owe them is only 6 months (18 month bond), which the employer started to count from the 6th month AFTER my employment, since that is when they ACTUALLY trained me, instead right after I got hired, AS THEY PROMISED.

and the other thing, I never had scheduled days OFF, ran the whole summer, and winter ON CALL, since we had no replacement crew for the a/c...so here I was a nice (read stupid) guy who put up with it, knowing that when the season dies down in fall, I will not fly as much, and will have a break, but still I would have to be ready to go on 1hr notice (corporate company)....So, they NEVER gave me confirmed days off, again, as promissed when I got hired!!

so, my basic math is this....8 min days off a month (minimum) x 12 months of employment = 96 days owed.

96 x daily rate (divide salary per 365 days) = an amount that higher than what I would owe them....

I used only 2 weeks of vacation time, and that was it.....will see my lawyer about this...but thanks again everyone...Btw, I am not trying to screw anyone, and leave a bad example to pilots, just trying to get what I deserve fairly...

[Benwa]

Mig29, when did you sign the contract ? When you were hired or when they sent you at FlightSafety ?

That should've been clear in the contract, any specific dates written on that piece of paper ?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It's not very often that I disagree with you, Cat, nor do I often speak up on this forum. But in this case I must do both.

Hi PilotFlying I am happy you agree with me on most things, and please post more because it is the only way we as a group can really communicate our thoughts on such a large scale.

My comment was meant to point out that aviation is arguably one of the most insecure occupations one could get into.

How many other occupations are there that require one to spend a very large amount of money just to get licensed and once employed you have very little to no protection job wise?

How many other occupations can you think of where your career rides on your medical and constant re testing of your ability to do your job where all it takes is someone who has an axe to grind with you can fail you at their leisure?

How many other jobs can you think of where the rules and regulations are so convoluted that even lawyers are unable to agree what they really mean?

How many other jobs can you think of where the rules are ignored by the employer with no consequences, but if the pilot is found to have broken said rules he/she is fed to the wolves?

I could go on and on but I think you may be able to get the drift of what I was alluding to when I made that comment.

[Guest295]

No clear winner in Flexjet training lawsuit
By Matt Thurber

March 1, 2008
Charter


Pilots often wonder what happens if they sign a contract to repay training costs when accepting a flying job that involves expensive simulator training but quit before the contract has expired. Conventional wisdom is that such contracts are not enforceable and the hiring company eventually drops the issue. That was not the case for Allen Miller, who accepted a job with Bombardier Aerospace’s Flexjet fractional operation in July 2000. Miller spent 17.5 months flying for Flexjet, leaving more than half a year before the 24-month period agreed to in his contract and owing the company thousands of dollars for training.

Miller didn’t want to pay, so Flexjet sued him. The reason he didn’t want to pay back his training costs, he told AIN, “is they promised us many things and didn’t deliver.”
Miller was hired with the promise that he would receive a type rating right away and regular six-month recurrent training. Miller believed what Flexjet told him, he said, because marketing material at the time assured shareowners that they would always fly with two type-rated pilots who received recurrent training every six months.

When he went to FlightSafety International in Tucson, Ariz., for the two-week initial training course in the Learjet 60, however, “the final step of the type-rating ride never happened. That was standard practice in the industry for them.”

After Miller left Flexjet, the company asked him to pay $4,750 toward his training costs. He refused, and in October 2005 Flexjet sued him. Miller countersued, according to Flexjet, “claiming common law fraud, fraudulent inducement, fraud by nondisclosure, negligent misrepresentation, consumer fraud and declaratory judgment.”

On February 8 the jury issued its verdict, and neither Miller nor Flexjet received any damages. Miller claims that he “won,” mainly because Flexjet representatives admitted that they lied about the type-rating promises. During one of the pre-trial depositions of Flexjet chief pilot Rick Handschuch, Miller said, “he admitted that what was promised to owners was not delivered.”

Handschuch also, during the trial, claimed that the brochure telling owners that they would always fly with two type-rated pilots wasn’t in effect at the time Miller worked for the company, according to Miller. “On the stand, they tried to say, ‘We didn’t use it until after 2002,’” he said. However, Miller and his attorney, Rob Wiley, had received a copy of the brochure before the trial in the open-disclosure phase that had a time-stamp saying it expired in January 2002.

A Precedent-setting Case
The jury didn’t find that there was a contract, Wiley said. “It denied Bombardier’s contract claim.” While it didn’t award any damages to either party, the jury also found that Bombardier Flexjet engaged in deceptive trade practices against Miller, according to Wiley.

“Bombardier Flexjet is satisfied with and accepts the court’s judgment in this case,” a Flexjet spokeswoman told AIN in a written response to questions about the trial.
“Flexjet did not make any misrepresentations to Mr. Miller–intentionally, negligently or by omission. The jury verdict supports this.…All pilots employed by Bombardier Flexjet are fully trained and qualified to fly the aircraft that they operate. In fact, Flexjet’s pilots generally receive twice the annual training recommended by the FAA.

“Although the jury found that Mr. Miller failed to comply with his training contract, it also found that the parties did not agree on the interpretation of ‘training.’ The jury did, however, find in Flexjet’s favor on Mr. Miller’s counterclaims of fraud by nondisclosure, common law fraud and negligent misrepresentation. The jury rendered a contradictory verdict on the issue of consumer law fraud, answering questions on the issue in favor of each party, yet ultimately awarding Mr. Miller no damages. Mr. Miller’s claims of fraudulent inducement and declaratory judgment were dismissed.”

Wiley believes that this case sets a precedent for disputes between pilots and employers who insist that employees repay training costs if they leave before an agreed-on period of time has passed. “Now there is an actual case that got fought through to the bitter end,” he said. “This contract’s not worth the paper it’s written on.”

[Donald]

Here is how not to try and weasel out of a training bond.

Court decision

Here's one of the interesting notes in the judgement:

[6] Mr. Storvold and the defendant then discussed the terms of employment,

and an agreement was reached. The agreement was not reduced to writing.

[PilotFlying]

I could go on and on but I think you may be able to get the drift of what I was alluding to when I made that comment.

I absoultely get your drift, Cat! My answer to every one of the age-old "how many other jobs can you think of where..." questions comes up with a big fat ZERO! Aviation is truly a unique profession. The trait that generally drives people toward this business - passion - is, unfortunately, the same trait that is taken advantage of to create opportunities of exploitation. And why do people keep doing it? Because they love their jobs. It's a Catch 22 that has unfortunately become more and more common, and is somewhat unique to this business due to its nature.

That being said, my opinion stands that for all the sacrifices that are made to make a life of this job, the rewards are far greater. Work hard, benefit hard. Give some, take some. Don't like the deal? Don't take the deal. In my experience, this is generally true for whatever it is you may do.

I am in no way condoning the behaviour of some operators - and pilots, for that matter - but rather trying to show that a love for this job can prevail thorough the sacrifices that have to be made. Just be careful to put your passions aside when making career and financial decisions, as they will only make you vulnerable. The choices are there. Just be sure to honour whatever choice it is that you make.

Who knows - maybe my next 15 years and a few more grey hairs will change my opinion. But I'm almost certain that it won't. There are guys and gals out there that have proven it can be done, and they are truly an inspiration.

I love my job.

[bobcaygeon]

I love my job shouldn't mean I have to risk my life unneccesarily for it, or work for peanuts doing it. Only in aviation.

Most are lucky enuf to make it thru but many are not

[PilotFlying]

I love my job shouldn't mean I have to risk my life unneccesarily for it, or work for peanuts doing it.

Couldn't agree more. That is why the choices are there to be made.

['effin hippie]

I had a bond.
Something came up, I wanted to leave. I left, the company got some $$$ and that was that.

The other side of a bond is that it allows you to leave an employer with a clean conscience. Seriously. As an employer, you can have my loyalty, or the $$$. Not both.

Oh I know, I know. There are some f***ing obscene practices out there. But instead of sitting around smoking this idiot 'lets all band together and everything will be great' crack-pipe, maybe we could accept that certain 'best practice' flavours of bonds/employment agreements are the best option we have to reconcile employer's need to protect an investment with an employee's need to move on to greener pastures.

We don't need more brilliant new ideas, we need to f***ing enforce and follow the rules we've got. If TC, along with employers actually did its job, there wouldn't be broken, overweight machines to fly. I'm pretty sure that Canadian employment law already has regulations covering what is or is not acceptable in an employment agreement.

Bottom line, we live in a free market. You don't like the money - leave. You don't like training bonds - don't sign one; or sign one, and don't bitch to me if leaving early costs a few $K. Fly for long enough and with your eyes open to the opportunities around you, you will end up with pretty good money and a pretty good schedule. Traipse along with your head up your ass expecting everything to fall into place because you read on Avcanada that you ARE special, goshdarnit - and as far as I'm concerned you deserve what you get.

ef

[Chuck Ellsworth]

We don't need more brilliant new ideas, we need to f***ing enforce and follow the rules we've got. If TC, along with employers actually did its job, there wouldn't be broken, overweight machines to fly.

How long before Canada is another Indonesia?

[CAL]

QUESTION:

In your contract it states that you have a 3 month period in which either party can go its seperate way in the event that the candidate was not suited for the job....fairly standard right?

Now you signed a 'promise to pay note' which was seperate from your contract before you went into the sim.....a month later you realize that its not for you and more to the point not what you were told or expected....what are your options?

Thanks

[BoostedNihilist]

.