It is nice to see someone who understands the need for proper training.
Which brings up another question, how do they do the rating in a day and a half if there is significant wind blowing during that time frame.
I noticed in that TC sea plane instructors guide there was no mention of what rate of descent one should maintain, and no mention of what action to take should the airplane contact the water in a high rate of descent which results in a bounce back into the air.
7hr float rating
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Cat Driver
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Re: 7hr float rating
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Foo Fighter
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Re: 7hr float rating
Thanks to those of you who suggested various places to do the 7hr course. I'll look into them.
And yes, the idea is to do 7hrs to get in the right seat, so I can learn from the guys who have thousands of hours operating in various conditions.
Personally I would never consider doing the 50hr course unless it was for a private license
FF
And yes, the idea is to do 7hrs to get in the right seat, so I can learn from the guys who have thousands of hours operating in various conditions.
Personally I would never consider doing the 50hr course unless it was for a private license
FF
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iflyforpie
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Re: 7hr float rating
Zero.. . wrote:.Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a lot of great high time float instructors out there. They just have to read their students and moderate what they teach until the student is ready to go to the next level
How much time do you have teaching pilots how to fly floats?
., you could teach people to teach people to teach people how to fly floats.
Me, I would probably be in trouble as soon as I untied the plane right now it's been so long.Maybe I had a bad experience but this bush guy wasn't doing anything to boost my confidence. Meanwhile the 'time-builder' instructors were telling me what I needed to know and telling me what I could do different after I had made my choices, and signed me off to go rent the plane and bomb around that same afternoon.
As for glassy water it was emphasized and practiced from my first flight and every flight thereafter. 50ft per minute was what I was told (I believe, again it's been a while).
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: 7hr float rating
how can you establish 50fpm if you don't have a vsi? you must have to wait for wind! 
Re: 7hr float rating
Actually a descent rate of 150 to 200 fpm is what you are striving for on a glassy water landing! Without a VSI, well I guess you just learn to feel what's right!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: 7hr float rating
Correct:Actually a descent rate of 150 to 200 fpm is what you are striving for on a glassy water landing!
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Rudder Bug
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Re: 7hr float rating
Exactly and one does not have to have his eyes riveted on a VSI while landing on water. You get to feel your seatWithout a VSI, well I guess you just learn to feel what's right!!
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yd_QppdGks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yd_QppdGks
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Big red dog
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Re: 7hr float rating
Did any of you guys ever think of using the shoreline for reference ??????? 
That is the only reasonable way to deal with glassy water the rest is just BS ----sure it can be done -- but why make it more difficult and less safe than it needs to be?
I could never figure out why anyone would want to fly out into the middle of a glassy lake when you have all the reverence in the world right along shore.
I have seen many bad landings and consequent aircraft damage over the years caused by people letting down into the middle of a glassy lake.
As a matter of fact I did help salvage a Otter (ODW) severely damaged by a guy doing just that . Bend the floats like bananas and broke the backbone of the aircraft
That is the only reasonable way to deal with glassy water the rest is just BS ----sure it can be done -- but why make it more difficult and less safe than it needs to be?
I could never figure out why anyone would want to fly out into the middle of a glassy lake when you have all the reverence in the world right along shore.
I have seen many bad landings and consequent aircraft damage over the years caused by people letting down into the middle of a glassy lake.
As a matter of fact I did help salvage a Otter (ODW) severely damaged by a guy doing just that . Bend the floats like bananas and broke the backbone of the aircraft
Re: 7hr float rating
You heard it first here folks.. start taking notesThat is the only reasonable way to deal with glassy water the rest is just BS
Don't Let the Same Dog Bite You Twice - . Berry
Re: 7hr float rating
Red One, that goes without saying!! You always use a reference whenever you can, but you also set the aircraft up as previously described at a 150 to 200 fpm descent, hold your nose attitube in the landing attitude and use your power to control your descent. Then again what happens when you don't have a reference point or can't get one such as a round lake with high hills all around it. You better learn to feel it!!Did any of you guys ever think of using the shoreline for reference ???????
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Cat Driver
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Re: 7hr float rating
A glassy water landing is nothing more than descending in the landing attitude at a constant rate of descent. ( Ideally 150 to 200 FPM. )
With regard to what visual aids you use to accomplish this is dependent on what you have for flight instruments.
If your airplane does not have any flight instruments you must have a shoreline to use as a visual reference.
If you have a full panel you can paint all the windows black and perform perfect glassy water landings every time.
Many moons ago I was taught to land zero zero during ILS approaches on the runway using the glassy water landing technique, it is not black magic.
With regard to what visual aids you use to accomplish this is dependent on what you have for flight instruments.
If your airplane does not have any flight instruments you must have a shoreline to use as a visual reference.
If you have a full panel you can paint all the windows black and perform perfect glassy water landings every time.
Many moons ago I was taught to land zero zero during ILS approaches on the runway using the glassy water landing technique, it is not black magic.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big red dog
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Re: 7hr float rating
Red One, that goes without saying!! You always use a reference whenever you can, but you also set the aircraft up as previously described at a 150 to 200 fpm descent, hold your nose attitube in the landing attitude and use your power to control your descent. Then again what happens when you don't have a reference point or can't get one such as a round lake with high hills all around it. You better learn to feel it!![/quote]
I am totally with you, and if you fly enough you will be able to feel the ground effect buffet too.
I know that-- but it takes time to get to that level. In the mean time you teach the low time guys to fly out in the middle of the lake and bounce and bang them in when there is perfect shore line reference.
It is a spectacle you can Witness on any glassy water day on our base where we have perfect shore line reverence. Once you train a guy to use the shoreline properly the rest becomes easy.
You still set your attitude and descent rate just the same but use more reference. Some places there may be only a point into the main lake body, but that will allow you to let down safely to within a few feet of water surface and the rest will be short save and easy.
Long story short learn to use all the tools available to make it easy and save.
Quote; --from my instructor many years ago--
The Great Pilot uses good judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior flying skills.
I am totally with you, and if you fly enough you will be able to feel the ground effect buffet too.
I know that-- but it takes time to get to that level. In the mean time you teach the low time guys to fly out in the middle of the lake and bounce and bang them in when there is perfect shore line reference.
It is a spectacle you can Witness on any glassy water day on our base where we have perfect shore line reverence. Once you train a guy to use the shoreline properly the rest becomes easy.
You still set your attitude and descent rate just the same but use more reference. Some places there may be only a point into the main lake body, but that will allow you to let down safely to within a few feet of water surface and the rest will be short save and easy.
Long story short learn to use all the tools available to make it easy and save.
Quote; --from my instructor many years ago--
The Great Pilot uses good judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior flying skills.
Re: 7hr float rating
Big Red Dog,
I think the saying is more along the lines like this,
"A superior Pilot uses superior judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior flying skills".
I think the saying is more along the lines like this,
"A superior Pilot uses superior judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior flying skills".
Keep the dirty side down.
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Driving Rain
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Re: 7hr float rating
I don't bother with any of that stuff. I simply drop a big fat load of foam in the lake and bingo, instant reference. 
The white stuff has other uses besides fighting fire. 
Love those radar altimiters and AOA's eh CL-Guy?
The white stuff has other uses besides fighting fire. Love those radar altimiters and AOA's eh CL-Guy?
Re: 7hr float rating
When I sat in the back row in English firing pellets it was called sarcasm.buster79 wrote:it's called sarcasim
Define SAR-CHASM. The gap between incerfa and distresfa?
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futureavi8or
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Re: 7hr float rating
I have a private licence and im looking to get a float rating. Should i do my float rating before i get my commercial or after? It would be nice to build some of my hours for my commercial on floats but alot of people i know waited until after their commercial to do floats. not sure why.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: 7hr float rating
my .02 cents.
Float flying is a specialist skill which uses the aircraft control skills, flying knowledge you should allready have and the decision making skills you allready use when you fly landplanes. You will learn to adapt and apply these general skills to the unique demands of float flying. For this reason I think you should learn from somebody who has a substantial reservoir of real world expereince to draw on. You have to have that kind of experience to know all the little tips, tricks and pitfalls that exist in float flying and I think are completely learnable in a good 7 hr course. The other huge advantage of experience is that the instructor will have the confidence to show you what it looks like when you are getting close to the limits. A 50 hr float instructor is going to be very conservative and thus you will likely not experience the more demanding situations which IMO are mandatory if you are in good faith give someone the rating
I would also like to add while expereince is mandatory , so is good insructional skills. Because your insructor has a gazillion hours should be proof HE can fly the aircraft, but the point of the training is to get YOU to fly the aircraft. The two skills are not necessarily related. I would do some homework and if possible try to talk to students who have allready trained at the school to find out how they found the training. The cheapest school may not be the best value. Finally my advice is to train on the lowest performing aircraft on offer. This will not only likely be cheaper but you will learn more.
Float flying is a specialist skill which uses the aircraft control skills, flying knowledge you should allready have and the decision making skills you allready use when you fly landplanes. You will learn to adapt and apply these general skills to the unique demands of float flying. For this reason I think you should learn from somebody who has a substantial reservoir of real world expereince to draw on. You have to have that kind of experience to know all the little tips, tricks and pitfalls that exist in float flying and I think are completely learnable in a good 7 hr course. The other huge advantage of experience is that the instructor will have the confidence to show you what it looks like when you are getting close to the limits. A 50 hr float instructor is going to be very conservative and thus you will likely not experience the more demanding situations which IMO are mandatory if you are in good faith give someone the rating
I would also like to add while expereince is mandatory , so is good insructional skills. Because your insructor has a gazillion hours should be proof HE can fly the aircraft, but the point of the training is to get YOU to fly the aircraft. The two skills are not necessarily related. I would do some homework and if possible try to talk to students who have allready trained at the school to find out how they found the training. The cheapest school may not be the best value. Finally my advice is to train on the lowest performing aircraft on offer. This will not only likely be cheaper but you will learn more.
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Cat Driver
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Re: 7hr float rating
Seven hours is barely enough time to learn the basics of sea plane flying for the simple reason that you will not be able to really experience all the variables that come into play once you bring another variable into your flying.
Water conditions are so variable that it takes years to fine tune all the different situations you will run into once you start operating on and off the water.
The minimum time of fifty hours sea plane flying time for doing float ratings is really not enough no matter how good ones instructional skills are....and how can someone teach something they may never have experienced?
One of my concerns about the sea plane rating is the high number of ratings that are given and the student has never taken off of or landed on glassy water...the biggest wrecker of sea planes there is.
If seven hours is sufficient to learn how to fly sea planes how come there are so few schools who will rent you one to fly with a new rating?
Water conditions are so variable that it takes years to fine tune all the different situations you will run into once you start operating on and off the water.
The minimum time of fifty hours sea plane flying time for doing float ratings is really not enough no matter how good ones instructional skills are....and how can someone teach something they may never have experienced?
One of my concerns about the sea plane rating is the high number of ratings that are given and the student has never taken off of or landed on glassy water...the biggest wrecker of sea planes there is.
If seven hours is sufficient to learn how to fly sea planes how come there are so few schools who will rent you one to fly with a new rating?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: 7hr float rating
who the hell is looking at a VSI on a glassy water landing... feel that plane man!
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Cat Driver
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Re: 7hr float rating
Me.who the hell is looking at a VSI on a glassy water landing...
Once you have stabilized the airplane in the correct attitude and rate of descent the VSI is your most accurate instrument for checking your rate of descent.
If you are using " feel " as a method of determining attitude and rate of descent you are a good candidate to feel the airplane tearing its self to pieces after hitting the water in the wrong attitude and to high a rate of descent.feel that plane man!
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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brokenwing
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Re: 7hr float rating
Sailing is another thing that is neglected. I would never sign off a seaplane rating without real glassy water and a good windy day to practice sailing.
"I had a pilot's breakfast ... A coffee and a piss followed by a donut and a dump." -D. Elegant
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Cat Driver
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Re: 7hr float rating
Agreed, and there is very little training on how to sail in high winds with river currents that are fairly fast.....
....I guess there are limits on what one can do because of the need to have the right weather conditions......but I just don't understand how so many ratings are given out without having done glassy water landings for real.
....I guess there are limits on what one can do because of the need to have the right weather conditions......but I just don't understand how so many ratings are given out without having done glassy water landings for real.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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brokenwing
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Re: 7hr float rating
Glassy is tough to do when you expect a rating in 2 days..., and there is a huge difference between glassy and almost glassy, and I wont sign a rating off untill I have real glassy. Sailing in a tough wind with a strong tide or river current must be hard to teach in 7hrs. I wouldnt know where to start. I also teach a proper precautionary landing, It seems that most schools teach 'em without the intention of actually landing.
"I had a pilot's breakfast ... A coffee and a piss followed by a donut and a dump." -D. Elegant
