Aerobatics

[SkyWolfe]

Why do people choose to live their lives in the shadows?

Because people like me like to scare them

[Grantmac]

It's funny that you bring up the liter bike as a metaphor for the Pitts. It's for perhaps the exact same reason that I wouldn't own either, the performance isn't worth the decreased utility.
Actually every bike I've bought has had less power than the first. It's not that I couldn't afford a larger bike, or that they scare me (riden a liter bike, it's just another thing you respect in life). I just couldn't stand not bring able to ride it to it's full potential, and lets be honest here; nobody should be riding it to it's full potential off of a track.

But getting back to the plane; I'm sure I could do 90% of the acro, all the way up to intermediate and beyond in a Skybolt or an Acroduster II. If I ever get to where I'm beyond the abilities of the aircraft (not likely) then I've most likely got enough money to be able to afford a second aircraft. At that point it's gonna be something really competitive.
The point is: I'm no where near that point, I may not ever reach that point and for now I'd be super thrilled to have anything without an "Aerobatics Prohibited" placard.

So for now I'm going to try and get a taste of acro in a Citabria or somesuch locally and see if it's what I want to do. Something tells me it is, because thats just the sort of personality I have.
Cheers,
Grant

[MichaelP]

Not sure I understand that remark, Mike. The (S1) Pitts is the same as it has been, for many decades.

Training was different at one time with a discipline that meant transition to other types was a bit easier. IMHO of course.
There were more 'real' aeroplanes available in that place at that time and so many more people were familiar enough with tailwheel aeroplanes.
It is very difficult to find experienced tailwheel instructors these days and schools/clubs who are prepared to rent you tailwheel aeroplanes.
On this airport there are only two or three instructors able to teach people to fly tailwheel aeroplanes and this is one of the busiest in Canada they say!
There is only one school in the whole Lower Mainland with a tailwheel aeroplane to rent.

[SkyWolfe]

Which is overall really sad, because it seems like in a sense they are being phased out.

No one wants you to fly their tail wheel aircraft unless you have some experience, and getting that experience is difficult because less and less people are operating them. With this there will be less and less truly qualified people to teach on them, and less interest to learn.

It seems like a vicious cycle. Or, at least that has been my experience...

Wolfie

[MichaelP]

I've had two students go through to the Cathay cadet program.
One got side tracked into Dragonair...
Cathay use a CAP 10B to determine whether the cadet will have the stick and rudder skills they desire.
I gave both students some time in the Citabria with upset manoeuvres
Now I have another student going for the cadet program; I told him we'll do a little in the Decathlon so that he won't be surprised.

Even though the Cessna 152 is the favourite trainer for most schools, an aerobatic tailwheel aeroplane still checks pilots for the real skills in flying.

[MichaelP]

MX2??? Whats that?
The aeroplane of my schoolboy dreams is still better!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7478123.stm

[Grantmac]

I've had two students go through to the Cathay cadet program.
One got side tracked into Dragonair...
Cathay use a CAP 10B to determine whether the cadet will have the stick and rudder skills they desire.
I gave both students some time in the Citabria with upset manoeuvres
Now I have another student going for the cadet program; I told him we'll do a little in the Decathlon so that he won't be surprised.

Even though the Cessna 152 is the favourite trainer for most schools, an aerobatic tailwheel aeroplane still checks pilots for the real skills in flying.

Who has a Decathalon for rent? PM me with the hourly rate if your not comfortable posting it. I'm definately interested in some time in it.
Cheers,
Grant

[MichaelP]

I fly a privately owned Decathlon.
Whereas I can do the occasional experience flight, it is someone's personal aircraft and so is not available for rental.

There is another Decathlon on the scene that may well be available for rental soon; I'll talk to its owner to find out when.

I myself would have to renew my aerobatic instructor rating...

It was a lot simpler doing this sort of thing in pre EASA England!

[Grantmac]

Thanks for trying to get some more interesting aircraft on the scene. I know they are out there it's just finding owners interested in splitting costs, etc. Of course not having to fly over there or take a ferry would be nice but I'll take what I can get.
Cheers,
Grant

[Hedley]

I myself would have to renew my aerobatic instructor rating

Let me know if I can help with that, Mike. I have a class
one aerobatic instructor rating.

Actually, if have your class one (normal) instructor rating
(and you bloody well should!) and you have aerobatic experience,
you can just do the ride for the class one aerobatic instructor rating.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_92

CAR 421.92(3(b)

Experience

An applicant shall:

(b) hold a Class 1 Flight Instructor Rating and provide a letter certifying that the applicant is competent to perform the aerobatic manoeuvres specified in the Experience section of the class 2 Aerobatic Rating.

CAR 421.92(5)

Credits

An applicant who holds, or has held within the previous 24 months, a Class 1 Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane or Helicopter shall be deemed to have met the knowledge requirement.

So, no written test. Just show up for the ride for a class one
aerobatic instructor rating, based upon your class one instructor
rating, and your expired class two aerobatic instructor rating.

How much flying you can do in Canada is all about how much
paper you can push.

[MichaelP]

All I have to do is to do the flight test...

When I did the flight test before, I had to do a flight in the Chipmunk with a Class 1 instructor at Victoria.
At that time I had more aerobatic experience teaching than anyone else in this neighbourhood... Oh the arguments!
I'd been teaching aerobatics in England for many many years.
I don't teach headache intermediate or unlimited aerobatics, you go that far with someone else!

The argument about flying an aeroplane inverted without an inverted system... Just close the throttle! There's a difference between an engine turning a prop and one being turned by the prop. An inverted glide never gave any of my engines any troubles and I see this as very important to teach a pilot the recovery from the inverted and to be comfortable inverted.

A TC examiner who told the Aerobatic instructor candidate that the stick goes forward before the opposite rudder is applied in spin recovery... Works for many aeroplanes, but the standard technique works for all aeroplanes!
I was so annoyed I phoned him up on this one!
The Citabria manual specifies standard technique.

I also teach slow rolls at well below the recommended entry speed.
Let's roll at 80 knots This is the proof of ability. Besides it prepares you for the roll off the top.

Am I current aerobatic?
Absolutely, I am lucky enough to be doing it often

Now I've got to go fly the Citabria, but no aerobatics, it's not on the OC!
TTFN

[Hedley]

A TC examiner who told the Aerobatic instructor candidate that the stick goes forward before the opposite rudder is applied in spin recovery

You're pulling my chain, right?

In a fully developed upright spin, if forward stick is applied,
it will result in the nose dropping. Like a spinning skater pulling
her arms in, this can markedly reduce the radius of gyration
and substantially increase the rate of rotation. A wild ride.

This is very much type-specific, but ...

For spin recovery, generally it's power off, full rudder
opposite the yaw, and only after that, on some low
wing types, gently release the back pressure to try
to reduce the AOA. High wing types, generally just
neutralize the stick. Or let go of it entirely (Beggs-Mueller).

You're kidding, right?

[fougapilot]

You're kidding, right?

Probably not...

What next? Full stick forward and full power before opposite rudder?

Some people just have a hard time admitting they don't know about something...

[MichaelP]

I'm not kidding, I wish I was.
Funny thing is, the aerobatic instructor who was told to do it differently to the TC approved method as written in TC flight manuals was once an airshow pilot flying the Fouga Magister!

Before making my phone call I gathered all the information... The Decathlon Flight Manual says stick forward then opposite rudder, the placard on the panel says opposite rudder and then stick forward.
The Citabria manual says opposite rudder stick forward.

The TC examiner is known for his own aerobatic displays and he flies these very well indeed.
I have no doubts as to his abilities as a pilot.

In aviation there are all kinds of strong individualistic people, it can be a diplomatic nightmare.
I was very careful making my phone call...
Trouble with me is I can't keep my mouth shut when I see something very dangerous... Many years ago the same person threatened me with physical harm when I told him I'd inspected the aeroplane he was taking joy rides in and that all the rear fuselage structure was rotted and had suffered glue failure.
When you see unknowing people flying in a condemned aircraft and you know the danger, it is impossible not to say something.
Don't we all want to prevent someone from committing suicide?

[BoostedNihilist]

MX2??? Whats that?

mmmmmmmmm

there ya go Mike



Question.. why the edge in the red bull air races?

[cervelott]

I think schools in Canada are missing out on tailwheel flying. Apparently in the U.S. tailwheel interest is on the upswing and
it is amazing that there is virtually nothing offered here around the Toronto area. With the exception of Brampton it is near impossible
to find a taildragger to train in. Couple that with something like an Aeronca Champ where the fuel burn is down around 4 gallons an hour
I am not sure why we are finding taildragger training so hard to come by in Canada. If you google the U.S. there are loads of clubs, flying
schools and individuals offering taildragger checkouts and training.

[MichaelP]

Tailwheel aeroplanes = passion for flying.
Aerobatics = passion for flying.
Cessna 152/172 = do the job, practical, cheap, easy to maintain.
Doing the job = career = job = earning.
Earning = legitimacy... Money is the object.

The Canadian psyche is all about legitimacy, earning money... There's some guilt perhaps in wanting to go and roll around the sky for the joy of it.
So we see fleets of practical nosewheel trainers grinding the student sausage into commercial pilots to go into the slave job market.... all the gold braid hopefuls.

It's Canada Day, perhaps a day to start to do something in the spirit of fun.

[cervelott]

I think you are on to something Michael. I was at Buttonville the other day (one of my favourite airports, used to work there), and there is little
sign of the fun of flying. It is very much business aviation with none of the club atmosphere that I think is so important to stimulate interest in
our industry. I hate to see flying becoming so commercial with the days of BBQ`s and hanger flying at the airport going by the wayside. Was up at Edenvale a month or so ago...nice to see an airport that appears to be bringing back the fun in flying.

[MichaelP]

I am on the MSN with a friend from Holland and this is what he just wrote:

"Yes I remember you saying: "you realise that all this is only temporary don't you" I would not have any of that, that was my world and it was going to stay like that."
"It only lasted for a couple of years....."

We were privileged to have been able to fly aeroplanes in the Tiger Club and later in my own Condor Club.
We flew Tiger Moths, Stampes, Jodels, Condors, Turbulents and a whole variety of funny little aeroplanes for the fun of it.
That was England in a more passioned time.

I have not changed, but aviation has changed, not so much in England, but I suppose I'm in a different culture here.
I go over to Pro from time to time, indeed I flew there twice yesterday... They miss my tea...
Tea, yes, this is British hospitality and it is retained here at my new school where there is a lounge, and tea and goodies are always available. The coffee was made this morning as well.
I like to retain the 'Club' style of operation.
Every club is a business, you have to go for a profit to ensure survival, but it doesn't have to appear that way.

[Grantmac]

That is exaclty what I'm talking about. I never had that much "Fun" once the challenge of getting the license was over.
I'm more interested in logging a variety of experiences rather than logging the same hour over and over again until I'm eligable to do it for a living. I have really no desire to do that with my life.
MichaelP, if your no longer at Pro then could you PM me with the outfit your with? And will you guys be able to offer any aerobatic training in the future?
Thanks,
Grant

[Blue Side Down]

Question.. why the edge in the red bull air races?

It appears to have proven itself the fastest in the class- if you remember the debut year of the races, there were a couple Edges, a handful of Extras, a couple Suk's and more than one Cap. As the years went by, the Edges proved to win a majority of the time and hence the type 'edge'd out the competition... or they gave certain pilots the 'edge they needed to win consistently... ha, the possibilities with that one.

Funny thing actually, back in the first year, I was wondering why no one was modifying their wings with shaped wingtips or swapping out the symmetrical airfoils for semi's... then two years later, no surprise, all the Edges have shaped wingtips, and I'd expect that the top placers like Mangold now fly semi symmetrical airfoils on a custom wing.

[MichaelP]

I knew Paul Bonhomme in my White Waltham days...

It appears to have proven itself the fastest in the class

The Spitfire still beats it, and who here doesn't get an emotional surge when the smooth noise of the Merlin engine is heard?

The atmosphere and fun of flying in the UK is something I really miss here.
To an extent I can recreate it flying inverted here and there, and having a laugh with TC about it, while we are still allowed to do it.
I do relate aerobatic flights to TC inspectors from time to time with a grin as it is still legal from time to time.
Vancouver has a reputation for being the city of no fun, if this attitude invades our sport too much then I fear we will have to go abroad to places where risk is still allowed.

MichaelP, if your no longer at Pro then could you PM me with the outfit your with?

http://www.sealandair.ca we have Diamonds, not very aerobatic but still fun, and I still fly the Citabria at Pro from time to time and the other day I did a flight in a 152
Colette at Glacier Air Squamish is looking for a Decathlon to do aerobatic training in, Francois can get his aerobatic instructor rating back for that...
For those who know him, Francois is doing a whole lot better there, looks better, and is happier.

I'll pick up the Decathlon in the morning and take my Cathay candidate for a flight in it in preparation for his interview.

This was something I created a long time ago, I thought about creating something similar here, but it takes people with a lot of spirit and passion to make it work:

[Hedley]

The Spitfire still beats it

I would be very surprised if the Spitfire was not faster
than an MX2 or Edge ... it has FIVE TIMES the horsepower!!

I know everyone gushes endlessly about the Spitfire, but you
couldn't even do a decent half reverse cuban eight in it, or
a slow roll, without the engine cutting out

A fighter without inverted fuel and oil systems is a bit of an
odd beast. Personally, if I owned a Spitfire, my first modification
would be inverted fuel and oil.

Before anyone cries foul over the negative G thing, note
that the best german pilots used negative G in WWII to
easily get rid of a Spitfire on their tails. Adolf Galland
and many others would bank one way, and use opposite
rudder and forward stick, a maneuver that no Spitfire,
Hurricane or P-51 could follow. This would lead to a nice
overshoot, and the german pilot on the tail of the Allied
pilot

it takes people with a lot of spirit and passion

Heh. Try an enormous amount of money and tireless effort

At my airport there is a small group of us with four Pitts S-2B's
for pulling and pushing G's, a Maule and a Citabria for basic
training (think pickup trucks), a C421B for getting someplace, and
a bunch of aerobatic (mostly supercharged) radial engine warbirds.
A new 15,000 square foot hangar is under construction. Which adds
up to more wrenching and flying that I can stand

At Gatineau there is Vintage Wings. Near Niagara there
is the Ed Russell collection. And Geneso, NY hosts an
amazing collection of vintage aircraft. Old Rhinebeck, NY
must have one of the largest collection of flying WWI
aircraft in the world - a friend of mine is their chief pilot.

There are lots of neat, flyable aircraft collections everywhere.
Been to Kermit Week's place in Florida?

[SkyWolfe]

I did a flight in a 152

For those who know him, Francois is doing a whole lot better there, looks better, and is happier.

GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

This was something I created a long time ago, I thought about creating something similar here, but it takes people with a lot of spirit and passion to make it work:

I'm waiting.... *tapping foot impatiently*

[Grantmac]

At my airport there is a small group of us with four Pitts S-2B's
for pulling and pushing G's, a Maule and a Citabria for basic
training (think pickup trucks), a C421B for getting someplace, and
a bunch of aerobatic (mostly supercharged) radial engine warbirds.
A new 15,000 square foot hangar is under construction. Which adds
up to more wrenching and flying that I can stand

At Gatineau there is Vintage Wings. Near Niagara there
is the Ed Russell collection. And Geneso, NY hosts an
amazing collection of vintage aircraft. Old Rhinebeck, NY
must have one of the largest collection of flying WWI
aircraft in the world - a friend of mine is their chief pilot.

There are lots of neat, flyable aircraft collections everywhere.
Been to Kermit Week's place in Florida?

I want to live near your airport. Which gets to a point I think that needs saying. These sort of interesting aircraft used to be all over the place, and used to be available for renting once you had demonstrated the required skills. Now it seems that nobody starting out gets any time on them, any you certainly will not be allowed to go solo; who is going to carry on with this sort of flying? The place with the Pitts up here offers aerobatic training but they refuse to do actual check-outs on the aircraft (recommend a place in the states). Sure there has been a resurgence south of the border, but up here in Canada it still seems pretty dead. How many people starting out in aviation do anything but build time in boring aircraft so that they can get a job. The local flying club certainly doesn't seem to want to provide fun flying, they are much more of the "puppy mill" kind of operation.
I guess I'm just frustrated with the local situation.
Cheers,
Grant