Cat Driver wrote:... a TC employee can sodomize sheep in their cubicles...

Is that why my documents haven't been updated yet?

Cat Driver wrote:Here is a serious question bob sacamano, considering the industry used to leave it up to the chief pilots to determine who they let fly their airplanes based on knowledge and flight testing by said chief pilots do you think the transferable PPC is better?

I'd love to get into a whole TC/PPC debate, but I won't. This thread is Doc's bashing thread. Where I fly, we've got company check pilots, and they determine who has the skills and who is able to handle the aircraft. They do the rides, and not TC.

I'd love to get into a whole TC/PPC debate, but I won't. This thread is Doc's bashing thread. Where I fly, we've got company check pilots, and they determine who has the skills and who is able to handle the aircraft. They do the rides, and not TC.[/quote]

Company check pilots represent TC and must try and be unbiased and independent of their company when checking company pilots.

Company check pilots represent TC and must try and be unbiased and independent of their company when checking company pilots.

So tell me bumbles who do you think would be more qualified to determine the skills level of the company pilots, the chief pilot or some TC inspector generally speaking?

Cat Driver wrote:

Company check pilots represent TC and must try and be unbiased and independent of their company when checking company pilots.

So tell me bumbles who do you think would be more qualified to determine the skills level of the company pilots, the chief pilot or some TC inspector generally speaking?

Sorry I missed this reply to my earlier post - You lost me Cat Driver!

My comment emanates from "I'd love to get into a whole TC/PPC debate, but I won't. This thread is Doc's bashing thread. Where I fly, we've got company check pilots, and they determine who has the skills and who is able to handle the aircraft. They do the rides, and not TC. "

The "company pilot/Chief Pilot" represents TC when doing a check ride. Therefore my original comment applies here. Obviously a TC "inspector" will not be as well versed in the company's operations as a company check pilot (who represents TC in the check ride) may be.

Why are bearskin wages so low? Even after you put 10 gs down for the job...

Why are bearskin wages so low? Even after you put 10 gs down for the job...

Because some pilots still feel the need to put down 10 gs for the job in the first place, and the company continues to exploit this group of pilots...

If pilots stopped putting down money to work for a company, and refused to work for such low pay, conditions would improve.

Ralliart wrote:Because some pilots still feel the need to put down 10 gs for the job in the first place, and the company continues to exploit this group of pilots...

If pilots stopped putting down money to work for a company, and refused to work for such low pay, conditions would improve.

More often than not a person gets into aviation to fly heavy iron. Very few, if any, dream about someday moving to the great white north, leaving their families behind only to work for a small aviation company.

I believe there are some individuals who would stick around for at least a couple of years in order to get some solid experience. However, the majority would simply use a company to get the needed hours and then leave for the next step. Come on guys, we all know people like that!

If I was the owner of such a company and had about 20 guys come and go within a year I would go bankrupt. The Training Agreement/Bond: It's there to protect the company and in the end it keeps one grounded until they have some solid experience.

Never Mind

I was offered a job at Bearskin a couple of years back...but couldn't afford it. I felt pretty bitter about it at the time, as I had no job and even fewer prospects and spent a good 6 months afterwards living off KD untill finaly makeing it someplace else.

If you are serious about putting an end to this practice, then simply don't do it.

Unfortunately, us pliots are our own worst enemy on this one, and we get the industry we deserve.

definenormal wrote:I was offered a job at Bearskin a couple of years back...but couldn't afford it. I felt pretty bitter about it at the time, as I had no job and even fewer prospects and spent a good 6 months afterwards living off KD untill finaly makeing it someplace else.

THAT says it ALL!!!! Offered a job.....and he couldn't afford to take it. And still you line up at their doors with your MONEY clutched in your little hands.....and you wonder why some of us think you're a bunch of........you guessed it!

Doc and his secret Bear fetish.

Cat and his TCCA love/hate relationship.

Mods, can we make this a sticky?

definenormal wrote:I was offered a job at Bearskin a couple of years back...but couldn't afford it.

definenormal,

Can you define "couldn't afford it."? Were you not able to afford the price of the training bond or instead living on the wages you would've started with? If it was the training bond you couldn't afford I'm surprised they didn't give you an alternative such as helping you to get a bank loan/GIC.

Never Mind

Never Mind wrote:

definenormal wrote:I was offered a job at Bearskin a couple of years back...but couldn't afford it.

definenormal,

Can you define "couldn't afford it."? Were you not able to afford the price of the training bond or instead living on the wages you would've started with? If it was the training bond you couldn't afford I'm surprised they didn't give you an alternative such as helping you to get a bank loan/GIC.

Never Mind

Sounds to me like he was unemployed and couldn't afford to puke up TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS! Why should he even attempt to borrow it....to make folks stupid enough to have done it, feel justified? How can anybody with even half a brain continue to defend this practice?

I can't afford a Porsche. Shall I "define" that for you? Gee, I guess I could become a whore, work the streets, and buy a Porsche......but WHY would I??

Yeah, just as a note. I was talking to the CP at the Bear and they will help you get that loan if need be. Not saying it's right Doc... no need for a rebuttle.

Yeah, just as a note. I was talking to the CP at the Bear and they will help you get that loan if need be.

Jesus, I don't believe this stuff.

Since when does it become part of the CP position in a company to help pilots get loans to buy a job with the company you are CP for?

Is that part of the interview questions with TC now...to determine how smooth you are talking some poor unfortunate into paying to work?

Doc wrote:I can't afford a Porsche. Shall I "define" that for you? Gee, I guess I could become a whore, work the streets, and buy a Porsche......but WHY would I??

Doc,

Thank you for you continued interest in this matter, and your response to my post.(Apples to oranges) Although your response is less than dignified, your ardent 'stick-to-it-iveness" on this issue is quite admirable.

Some time ago, when interviewed by VAL, I was explained the details($$$) in order to get hired. I could not afford the $8,000 training bond out of pocket, but I would've been able to get the loan/GIC for that amount.

I'm sure that your reasons for being vehemently opposed to the subject in question are quite valid. Perhaps, when the rest of us have more experience in life we will some day cross paths with you and come to an understanding.

Never Mind

I guess I tend to go on, and on, and on, and on about this subject. For that, I apologize. The times are a changing, and it's time Cat Driver, and I, and a few others let you folks step into the bank and borrow money with which to purchase your next jobs. And, although Bearskin Airlines has been around since Christ, they have come upon this great idea of selling employment to pilots. They aren't alone here. VAL will also be happy to sell you a job, although, they demand a little more commitment from their purchasers. Keystone (or so I hear) has also discovered this untapped source of much needed revenue. Buyer Beware on this one, however.
Now, these companies hide behind the stupidity of pilots tricking them into believing these purchases are really training "bonds", and, for the most part it seems to be working.
Its seems that after spending upwards of thirty thousand dollars on learning to fly, and requiring a multi engine instrument rating, a pilot now faces but two choices. To work sixty hours a week as an indentured chattel to a company that just maybe will, someday, perhaps, place their weary ass in an airplane, or go to mommy and daddy, or the bank and take out yet another loan, with which to grease the palm of some maggot, money hungry, pilot using, backward thinking, suck 'em in airline and buy a job. Shit! And guys like "Never Mind" actually, not only defend, but in some twisted way, justify this practice. Oh, it's Okay, the CP will help you get a loan.....
You people HAVE to be kidding......

Doc wrote: Oh, it's Okay, the CP will help you get a loan.....

This does sound pretty pathetic, doesn't it...

Doc, this is for you('re fetish).



p.s. I couldn't wait till Christmas, so here is your present. New jammies for you.

Now that it seems chief pilots are in to the money lending business as advisers / pitch men, do they get a cut on the points the lender charges for the loan?

Sort of a sitting at the desk mileage pay.

Okay, but just so we're clear. The company will "help" you with the loan didn't mean the CP was heading over to the bank and co-signing the damn thing. They were probably more talking some type of intent letter. Anyway, I know you guys know that but I just wanted to be sure as I brought it up.

Don't want any nasty PM's from the CP at the Bear.

Don't want any nasty PM's from the CP at the Bear.

He can send his nasty PM's to Doc and me.

Nevermind,

To answer your question.......well Doc answered it for you........

By the way, a basic rule of economics; to successfully get approved for a bank loan, first you must proove you don't really need one....

Doc,

When a new physician moves to another city his/her skills are completely transferable. When a tool and die maker commences employment in a new machine shop his/her skills are completely transferable. When an auto mechanic starts working for another garage his/her skills are completely transferable.

In all 3 cases the indviduals can take their skills with them and start working right away. There's no need for 5 to 10 thousand dollars worth of training upfront. Not completely so for pilots. Even if one knows how to fly the space shuttle a person needs to acquire a PPC, which is an investment for the company doing the hiring.

Is there anything wrong with the company trying to protect their investment? Is there anything wrong with the company trying to keep you 1 or 2 years? Can these smaller transition aviation companies remain viable if there's a constant outflow of pilots, leaving perhaps after 3 to 6 months?

I recently rented a moving truck for which I had to pay a $500.00 deposit. When I returned 2 days later the bill came out to $144.00 and then got my $500.00 deposit back. Here's a test for you Doc: How much did I pay for the moving truck rental? $144.00 or $644.00? Waiting for your answer...

Never Mind

Why do pilots require retraining every time they change employers and other professions do not?

If a pilot was flying xxx airplane and changes companies every six months that operate the same type of airplane why do they require xxx hours of retraining with each company?