Cleared the Approach?

[Newwave]

Not on my Canadian CAP or GPH200 plates... It says, in the minima box

ILS
LOC
CIRCLING

Yeah i'm going to have to agree with you on that. The only thing that changes on the ILS app if the GP is u/s is the minimas you use. But it is still the ILS approach.

[AuxBatOn]

I don't argue with that. But there are some issues with using ILS when you want someone to fly the LOC really.

First, for me, and ILS is a precision approach with vertical and lateral guidance. Clearing me for the ILS GP U/S doesn't make much sense to me (but I'm not stupid and can make sense of it. However, I'm sure that if you clear a lower time guy, he may not be able to make sens of it)

Second, what if there is 2 different types of locs in the minima box (ie: LOC/DME and LOC) and the minimas are different, which one do you want the guy to fly?

What if the G/S is serviceable but the guy wants to fly the loc, how do you clear him for that?

[Newwave]

Well that's his choice to choose which minimums to use. Let's take the ILS 07 into YOW. Now, if ATC clears me for a straight in ILS 07 and I am withing 7 nm of the ZOW(moody ndb) I can descend to the 1500ft which is the beacon crossing altitude for someone not using the glidepath. Now I am still established on the LOC for the ILS but I just decided to use another minimum for my descent. I don't see what difference it makes if ATC knows if I am using a GP or not. Basically what I mean is that I am flying the ILS 07 approach into YOW but just not using the GP to determine my altitude minimas .I understand what you mean, I just don't think it matters to ATC or I might be wrong here. I mean if you look once again at that ILS 07 chart, and I am coming from LANRK to AGLIN and the VISOL (IF). There is a transition altitude between LANRK and AGLIN that would allow, if cleared for the ILS07 app by ATC, to descend to 3000 and intercept either the GP or once I get inside my 7nm of ZOW to go down to my beacon crossing. BTW can you provide me of an example of the LOC or LOC(DME) can't seem to find one here. I just want to see the differences on the chart.

[AOW]

BTW can you provide me of an example of the LOC or LOC(DME) can't seem to find one here. I just want to see the differences on the chart.

London, ON ILS or NDB Rwy 15 has ILS, LOC/DME, LOC, NDB and CIRCLING minima.

London, ON ILS or NDB Rwy 15 has ILS, LOC/DME, LOC, NDB and CIRCLING minima.

image0.jpg (96.94 KiB) Viewed 828 times

[Newwave]

Good question... It's got me wondering. I was going to say it is because LOKTI is a DME determined point but the LOC only minimum is even lower than the alt at which to cross it. Hmmm,

[AOW]

yeah, I don't get it either... I mean 40 ft is not a lot, but there is obviously some reason why the crossing alt is higher than the DMEless approach. Interestingly the NDB mins are the same as the LOKTI crossing alt... weird.

I'm sure there are a few other examples like this out there... I only happened to have a CAP4 lying around, but I'm sure you'd find some interesting approaches with different mins for with or without DME in the CAP2.

[Newwave]

I never really noticed. I will ask a coworker who has more experience. He's pretty much an aviation encyclopedia, he'll have the answer i'll get back with it!

[mattedfred]

Well i'd expect to be cleared for the ILS app glidepath U/S and follow the lowest minimum altitude on my plates.

well then ATC would not meet your expectations

i'm usually cleared for the localizer only approach into YYZ and advised that the G/S is U/S when it is off the air for some reason or another

never been cleared for an ILS app glidepath U/S

[Newwave]

So I got the logical answer to the question and it involves LOKTI. If you are DME equipped, LOKTI gives you a step down altitude for most likely an obstacle withing the FAF, after LOKTI which is DME established only, you can descend to the LOC DME minima. However, if you are not DME equipped you can only descend to the LOC only minima since LOKTI is only defined by a DME hence you can't use that step down. Doesn't really matter noawadays, everyone is /G almost!

[it'sme]

[Not on my Canadian CAP or GPH200 plates

It does on our Jeppesen charts which we use for both inside and outside Canada (maintains a constant chart format for crews)