Quote;
" if you're willing to work hard. "
And therein lies a lot of the problem.
Cat
Who hires guys with 7hrs on floats?
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Cat Driver
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shimmydampener:
If flying floats is what you really want, then more power to ya. I think that is great, even thought about making a career of flying floats myself.
But what I'm saying is that you may have to start on wheels or as an F/O somewhere first. I talk to too many guys who think that they are going to get there start in aviation by flying a 185 on floats and then move to the IFR. This is wrong way to go about it now I think, just my oppion though.
By the way, I have no interest in the shirt, tie, and gold bars airline flying. IFR yes, and I fly ing the bush right now, but not on floats.
If flying floats is what you really want, then more power to ya. I think that is great, even thought about making a career of flying floats myself.
But what I'm saying is that you may have to start on wheels or as an F/O somewhere first. I talk to too many guys who think that they are going to get there start in aviation by flying a 185 on floats and then move to the IFR. This is wrong way to go about it now I think, just my oppion though.
By the way, I have no interest in the shirt, tie, and gold bars airline flying. IFR yes, and I fly ing the bush right now, but not on floats.
Beacon Final,
You can think of yourself as the 5 foot chubby ugly duckling going to the model afterparty and trying to hook up with someone. It seems impossible but you know how many uglies we see with princesses out there. Similarly you have to show them what you can offer over and above your very limited float time.
You have to let them know you can work like a slave and keep a smile on no matter what. It will cost you some coin calling everyone and driving to where they exist but keep an up to date list of people who basically told you to f*&k off and those that chatted with you for a bit. The latter are people who respects your position and thus someone you would like to work for. It would be alot easier to have some more hours but what can you do besides buying them!?! It's all you man!!
You can think of yourself as the 5 foot chubby ugly duckling going to the model afterparty and trying to hook up with someone. It seems impossible but you know how many uglies we see with princesses out there. Similarly you have to show them what you can offer over and above your very limited float time.
You have to let them know you can work like a slave and keep a smile on no matter what. It will cost you some coin calling everyone and driving to where they exist but keep an up to date list of people who basically told you to f*&k off and those that chatted with you for a bit. The latter are people who respects your position and thus someone you would like to work for. It would be alot easier to have some more hours but what can you do besides buying them!?! It's all you man!!
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shimmydampner
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Float Flying
Hey ShimmyDampener
You're right, it's harder then hell to get into a decent float flying job, but not impossible. Must mins are upwards of 250 hours of float time just to get into a 180/185 and don't even get me started on getting your hands on a Beaver! But there's always a way...take a step back and take a bit of advice from Merlin, then scrap the rest. You can go directly for a job working a dock and build your float time like that and within a few years find yourself in a float plane, or work the ramp and in a few years (or months, some operations have quicker turn overs) in a nice wheeled aircraft. However, you can do what I'm doing (just not in the same area! lol) You'll notice that there is always a loop hole in the system if you look hard enough for it. I recommend you get your instructors rating before even thinking of doing anything else...get a couple of students under your belt and find a nice flight school to let you build float time. Because you can instruct on float planes with just fifty hours and your time building (all PIC) will continue to grow faster then any job working a dock. Plus, there's the added benefit of learning more by teaching then you ever could by flying on your own.
See you in the air....
You're right, it's harder then hell to get into a decent float flying job, but not impossible. Must mins are upwards of 250 hours of float time just to get into a 180/185 and don't even get me started on getting your hands on a Beaver! But there's always a way...take a step back and take a bit of advice from Merlin, then scrap the rest. You can go directly for a job working a dock and build your float time like that and within a few years find yourself in a float plane, or work the ramp and in a few years (or months, some operations have quicker turn overs) in a nice wheeled aircraft. However, you can do what I'm doing (just not in the same area! lol) You'll notice that there is always a loop hole in the system if you look hard enough for it. I recommend you get your instructors rating before even thinking of doing anything else...get a couple of students under your belt and find a nice flight school to let you build float time. Because you can instruct on float planes with just fifty hours and your time building (all PIC) will continue to grow faster then any job working a dock. Plus, there's the added benefit of learning more by teaching then you ever could by flying on your own.
See you in the air....
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cloudrunner
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Re: Float Flying
So let me get this straight, a guy who can't get a job flying floats because he doesn't have any float experience is teaching guys to fly float planes... is it me or is there something really wrong with this picture ?Pilot_18 wrote:Hey ShimmyDampener
I recommend you get your instructors rating before even thinking of doing anything else...get a couple of students under your belt and find a nice flight school to let you build float time. Because you can instruct on float planes with just fifty hours and your time building (all PIC) will continue to grow faster then any job working a dock. Plus, there's the added benefit of learning more by teaching then you ever could by flying on your own.
And as for the bit about learning more by teaching then by flying, I think you've got it backwards my friend...you should already have the knowledge in hand of what to do, and more importantly, what not to do in a floatplane before you go passing that (mis)information onto unsuspecting students, and who's to say you haven't already developed some potentially deadly habits yourself that will go un-checked until it's too late? IMHO, float flying, or any other specialty for that matter should be taught by experienced professionals, not time-building wannabes. Sorry 18, it's really nothing personal, I just think that working on the dock and learing how things REALLY work is a better solution for our aspiring young float jock.Get out there, get your hands dirty and work for some cranky old bastard so you'll know what you're in for.
Fill the Oil..Check the Fuel
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Cat Driver
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So help me get this straight.
A pilot can't get a job with a new float rating flying for a company doing charter work because of insurance companies want about two hundred hours float time.
However the insurance companies see nothing wrong with a pilot with fifty hours on floats teaching other pilots?
What in hell is going on here, this is stupid beyond beliefe.
Cat
A pilot can't get a job with a new float rating flying for a company doing charter work because of insurance companies want about two hundred hours float time.
However the insurance companies see nothing wrong with a pilot with fifty hours on floats teaching other pilots?
What in hell is going on here, this is stupid beyond beliefe.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Float Flying
Thanks for the advice, but I'm already a little past that, I've done the dockhand thing, I've already got the float time to beat the insurance, I've got a season of floats under my belt and already done the instructing thing. And sorry even with 250 hours of float time I still don't feel qualified to instruct much more than the basic 7 hour rating. There is alot to experience in float flying and with 250 hours I know I've barely scratched the surface for myself. The old saying "Ya learn somethin' new every day" is especially true in the bush, I think. New float pilots shouldn't be learning from me, they should be learning from the experienced bush vets that have managed to keep themselves alive for more than my measly amount of time. Not only would the student be short-changing themselves by learning from me, I'd be short-changing msyelf. Float flying at a flight school on nice weather days in a half-empty aircraft and float flying in the bush in shit weather, loaded to the hilt with a dead moose carcass in the back and the floats packed full of sturgeon are two totally different things. I think I'd learn much more from the latter and be a much better pilot for having experienced it. (In fact, I know I've learned much more from the latter.)Pilot_18 wrote:Hey ShimmyDampener
You're right, it's harder then hell to get into a decent float flying job, but not impossible. Must mins are upwards of 250 hours of float time just to get into a 180/185 and don't even get me started on getting your hands on a Beaver! But there's always a way...take a step back and take a bit of advice from Merlin, then scrap the rest. You can go directly for a job working a dock and build your float time like that and within a few years find yourself in a float plane, or work the ramp and in a few years (or months, some operations have quicker turn overs) in a nice wheeled aircraft. However, you can do what I'm doing (just not in the same area! lol) You'll notice that there is always a loop hole in the system if you look hard enough for it. I recommend you get your instructors rating before even thinking of doing anything else...get a couple of students under your belt and find a nice flight school to let you build float time. Because you can instruct on float planes with just fifty hours and your time building (all PIC) will continue to grow faster then any job working a dock. Plus, there's the added benefit of learning more by teaching then you ever could by flying on your own.
See you in the air....
And I'm not too sure about learning more from teaching, I learned more in my first month of flying floats than I did in a whole year of instructing, or my entire commercial license for that matter.
But yes, with any luck, I'll see you in the air this summer.
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water wings
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i guess i can't really add anything here, just agree with everything and cannot understand why a float rating is still only 7 hours. hello death trap.
i was lucky and got a promise to be hired IF igot 100 hours floats..i went out and spent 9G (my savings) and called the guy back in a month saying that he better keep his promise. thankfully he did.
After a 5 month season, i didn't even make that $$ back (which leads me to say how anxious i am at getting on that salary forum grrr) the dispatchers made twice the amount i did and no one's life was in their hands. i digress.
if you want a chance at a job with a flat float rating, i'd have to say it ain't gonna happen. Getting on as a dock hand isn't likely these days either..i have never had a dock hand, most pilots do it themselves now.
I would also have to agree that the more remote you are, the better your chances albeit slim. I started ona dry reserve with NO road access. a couple of hopefulls called me at the float base and asked if they could drop by and talk to the chief pilot. i repeat, No road access. be informed before you call. that helps. it helps if you speak Cree.
i feel your pain, floaties. i just can't change the insurance moguls.
PS: to disable another myth, don't waste your time going up to the promised land : yellowknife. That place is saturated with 200 hour float rated pilots serving beer, selling tickets, and hauling bags for 2 years...hell one of the major airlines has 2 of their flight attendants and a couple of agents wanting to fly. it isn't what it used to be in the glory days before the roads went in. Roads - the float pilot's nemesis. curse them.
i was lucky and got a promise to be hired IF igot 100 hours floats..i went out and spent 9G (my savings) and called the guy back in a month saying that he better keep his promise. thankfully he did.
After a 5 month season, i didn't even make that $$ back (which leads me to say how anxious i am at getting on that salary forum grrr) the dispatchers made twice the amount i did and no one's life was in their hands. i digress.
if you want a chance at a job with a flat float rating, i'd have to say it ain't gonna happen. Getting on as a dock hand isn't likely these days either..i have never had a dock hand, most pilots do it themselves now.
I would also have to agree that the more remote you are, the better your chances albeit slim. I started ona dry reserve with NO road access. a couple of hopefulls called me at the float base and asked if they could drop by and talk to the chief pilot. i repeat, No road access. be informed before you call. that helps. it helps if you speak Cree.
i feel your pain, floaties. i just can't change the insurance moguls.
PS: to disable another myth, don't waste your time going up to the promised land : yellowknife. That place is saturated with 200 hour float rated pilots serving beer, selling tickets, and hauling bags for 2 years...hell one of the major airlines has 2 of their flight attendants and a couple of agents wanting to fly. it isn't what it used to be in the glory days before the roads went in. Roads - the float pilot's nemesis. curse them.
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cloudrunner
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I can't help to disagree with you WW. I have been in the business of flying floats for 6 out of my 8 seasons CPL now and have yet to be at an operation where they don't have dockhand(s). Maybe if it's a single 180/185 there is no need, but when you get 2or3 Beavers and an Otter all working on a busy day, there is just no way for the pilots to handle everything. There is weighing to be done and not to mention catching the airplane in a stiff wind ( bring a buddy to handle the Otter if the winds are strong and accross). The dock hand better be handy with a hammer if he wants to get hours cause that's when you're gonna get to go flying...out to the camps to do repairs, install docks etc. The insurance requirements have changed, but the outfitting business has not. If you are hungry for it, as it sounds like Beacon is... there is a way.
And Shimmy,
, especially when your on your way to that quiet lake with happy customers.
And Shimmy,
Well said and I back you 100%. Some guys will never know the feeling of cruising along at tree-top checking out moose and bear and bald eagles. Watching the earth go by at the controls of a Beaver is my second favorite thing to doIf you have to ask that question, you just don't get it. It never ceases to amaze me how surprised some people are that 'these guys' actually do exist. Why does it seem that everyone going into aviation these days thinks that the shirt and tie IFR deal is the be all and end all? Please, someone back me up here, there's gotta be some other guys like me that just want the sound of some round piston-popper and a calm lake at sunrise.
, especially when your on your way to that quiet lake with happy customers.Fill the Oil..Check the Fuel
I,ve said it before and i'll say it again. I sometimes wonder what method some are using to find work. I work at an outfit which operates 2 Beavers and a Cessna (which is registered private). As far as float operations go, one would be hard pressed to find a more laid back place to work. I spend many daylight hours sitting watching TV or out on the lake drinking beer and our dockhand is usually right there with me. Hell our dockhand does not even have to pump floats, gas airplanes or wash windows. On early Saturday and Sunday starts the dockhand gets to sleep in, since we load the night before.
On top of all that they have a chance to log some 180 time in the first season. Which brings about my question.
We will almost certainly need to fill a dockhand position as our past 180 pilot/dockhand will be doing some Beaver time this season. In our town there are a half dozen operators and in the past 2 years not a single person has come by or even called and said "hey i'm on a road trip mind if I stop in, with some pizza and beer' Well I added that last part but you get the idea. All I ever see is the same old resume or phantom night time faxes. It is very difficult to hire a person without ever meeting them.
We are an operation which gives both dockhands a chance to log time and for atleast the last six years hired first year Beaver pilots.
Yet since the town is 2 hours off the Trans Canada we never even get a visit.
Anyways good luck to all.
On top of all that they have a chance to log some 180 time in the first season. Which brings about my question.
We will almost certainly need to fill a dockhand position as our past 180 pilot/dockhand will be doing some Beaver time this season. In our town there are a half dozen operators and in the past 2 years not a single person has come by or even called and said "hey i'm on a road trip mind if I stop in, with some pizza and beer' Well I added that last part but you get the idea. All I ever see is the same old resume or phantom night time faxes. It is very difficult to hire a person without ever meeting them.
We are an operation which gives both dockhands a chance to log time and for atleast the last six years hired first year Beaver pilots.
Yet since the town is 2 hours off the Trans Canada we never even get a visit.
Anyways good luck to all.
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water wings
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well, cloud ., i guess i have seen a few dock hands around ( OK, about 100 in Yellowknife!!!) but my "dock hands" were the other pilots if they weren't flying, the dispatcher (a small girl with heart), or the first person i saw on the dock...i would like and need help on windy days no doubt...but i have never had help loading a plane, even the Beaver...the places i worked never hired an official dock hand. i didn't have a scale available at any of my pick up points...seriously, nothing to be proud of, but a moose is a moose....i do realise that official tourist camps do have a better system than most (hell, all) of the northern "communities" and lakes and am glad to hear these lodges give low timers a chance and expose them to the wonderful world of floats...i wouldn't say no to a willing helper!!! especially one that had ambition and interest!!!
When i started i did have an image of these log cabins in my mind but didn't see a single one at any time during the summers until i came "south" i can't complain, though... what could be better than float flying?! (don't answer that jetboy) take care, fly safe.
When i started i did have an image of these log cabins in my mind but didn't see a single one at any time during the summers until i came "south" i can't complain, though... what could be better than float flying?! (don't answer that jetboy)
take care, fly safe.
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cloudrunner
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WW, granted I may not understand the way things work in the Yellowknife, I just didn't want to discourage any ambitious float jocks from going the dockhand route. It may be that they just need to get little more creative with their approach to finding that first job. Some hard work and a can-do attitude as a dockhand will say a lot to a c/p. I would have to hope that Philly's pm is ringing of the hook considering his last post...otherwise the world of professional float flying may be in for some hurt here soon.
Fill the Oil..Check the Fuel
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Northern Skies
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One thing to keep in mind people, insurance on a privately registered a/c is a fraction of the cost of a commercially registered a/c.
So...
Start looking for guys who run lodges and who have their a/c registered privately!
So...
Start looking for guys who run lodges and who have their a/c registered privately!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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bottom_feeder
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I know how frustrating it is to be to work on the dock and spinning out airplanes that you wonder if you will ever get the chance to fly. The sad part of this situation is that it was the insurance company who said no. First they told me that if i had 250 hrs on floats i would be good to go. So, every chance my boss had he threw me right seat or to do any work or errands..he sent in the 180. This was last year. This spring i had racked up close to my 250 hrs...only to have the insurance man turn around and say i needed 500 hrs on floats and 1500 hrs total time to fly our 180!!(same requirements for the beaver and otter).
I'm sorry, but if a you have 500 hrs on floats and 1500 hrs total time...you are not lookin to fly a 180. There was no way my boss could come up with enough "missions" to get me that kind of time. I've dreamed my whole life of flying and to have some @ss behind a desk at the insurance co., who doesnt have one clue bout aviation or even my skills as a pilot... to say no...it pisses me off. He said that if i had 250 hrs on type they would consider it. How is a young guy ever gonna get his first job when they are asking for that mush time on type? So i ran by my boss the thought of me buying my own little cub or champ.
I know most people cant afford to go out and by an airplane...and i almost couldnt either. But i also can't afford to spend the next 10 years of my life working the dock until the insurance man finally says yes. So after my second year as a well compensated dockhand in the bush...i now own a cub on floats that i run errands with and deliver beer. I'm fortunate enough to work for a good operation and who can help me out with gas, main, sotrage etc. I now have over 700 hours with 500 on floats and preying that this summer brings better fortunes and lower insurance requirements.
i guess the moral of the story is... where there is a will, there is a way. I knew i should've been a lawyer
.
I'm just preying the insurance man never sets foot on our dock!!
I'm sorry, but if a you have 500 hrs on floats and 1500 hrs total time...you are not lookin to fly a 180. There was no way my boss could come up with enough "missions" to get me that kind of time. I've dreamed my whole life of flying and to have some @ss behind a desk at the insurance co., who doesnt have one clue bout aviation or even my skills as a pilot... to say no...it pisses me off. He said that if i had 250 hrs on type they would consider it. How is a young guy ever gonna get his first job when they are asking for that mush time on type? So i ran by my boss the thought of me buying my own little cub or champ.
I know most people cant afford to go out and by an airplane...and i almost couldnt either. But i also can't afford to spend the next 10 years of my life working the dock until the insurance man finally says yes. So after my second year as a well compensated dockhand in the bush...i now own a cub on floats that i run errands with and deliver beer. I'm fortunate enough to work for a good operation and who can help me out with gas, main, sotrage etc. I now have over 700 hours with 500 on floats and preying that this summer brings better fortunes and lower insurance requirements.
i guess the moral of the story is... where there is a will, there is a way. I knew i should've been a lawyer
.I'm just preying the insurance man never sets foot on our dock!!
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cloudrunner
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To those who sent me PM's. I think I responded to them all, if not get back to me. Sorry I took so long. I just got back from the Milwaukee Sports Show. Here is some good news, in a business without much. I talked to several operators who are looking for people this season. It would have been a perfect chance for those who were looking to meet alot of the operators from Northern Ontario and Manitoba. The show was very slow due to a blizzard on Saturday and operators would have had time to shoot the shit for a bit. Well good luck folks. I would expect to start seeing float operators posting jobs in the next three weeks or so.
