Reasonable Wages?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I guess that's the idea behind minimum wage, there could be three times as many pilots for every job as there are now, but the lowest full time position should not pay a negative wage. There is a hard minimum to the supply and demand principle, the lowest still needs to pay for food gas and rent, in order to get himself to work and continue working. Now I realize some jobs don't even provide this, but technically this is illegal. Time to fill the loopholes.
I'm one of those union guys that so many $36K King Air captains love to hate.
Our negotiating committee recently met with the company to extort, er agree to a zero percent increase in all aspects of our contract. Some extortionists they are!
(by definition I suppose my kid became an extortionist when he smashed open his piggy bank for a handful of loose change...obtaining money by use of force)
Our collective agreement defines our wages and working conditions. If I perform my contractual duties I'm then paid as per the same contract. No favoritism for bagliquors and no punishment for not. Many of us will go beyond the language of the contract, for the benefit of the company, provided safety, CARs limitations or fairness to others are not compromised. Many do not. Although many believe a union is a haven for lazy leeches, not all of us can be painted with the same brush.
Johnny, how does a pilot increase his value without breaking duty, CARs, being more suckie than someone with more integrity, or ending up in a wage war where someone eventually works for free. The lowest bidder is not always the best choice. I think it's common sense that sticking it to the company is the same as jamming it to yourself. Working together for the good of the company would be in everyone's best interest.
The age old debate about how much a pilots skills, experience and work ethics are worth continues. When a loyal employee can only afford to feed his family the no-name macaroni and processed cheese food, maybe it's time to reconsider the "I'd do anything to fly because I have such a romantic love for the office in the sky" attitude. Whether you call it whoring or charity or whatever, you should be able to make a reasonable wage sufficient to raise a family and live the standard Canadian dream.
I make $70K as a Metro captain. It may be more or less than others, but it works for me and I'm quite satisfied. I consider it a fair wage, as does the company, since they signed the collective agreement with no gun held to their heads. (Imagine! ) I don't need or expect to make more money with each day that passes. I've had no pay raise for many many months, yet I still seem satisfied. Some may suggest that perhaps I'm overpaid. I think not. My value increases each time I make a safe decision.
If a company can't stay in business while paying their employees a fair wage, why is that the pilots fault? Maybe it's the fault of poor management. Maybe.
Now, if they paid me $40K then they'd be getting a sweet deal.
I'm so sorry that someone is offended by pilots wishing to be paid "what they're worth", but poverty wages for skilled labour ain't right.
Fly safe, all.
Our negotiating committee recently met with the company to extort, er agree to a zero percent increase in all aspects of our contract. Some extortionists they are!
(by definition I suppose my kid became an extortionist when he smashed open his piggy bank for a handful of loose change...obtaining money by use of force)Our collective agreement defines our wages and working conditions. If I perform my contractual duties I'm then paid as per the same contract. No favoritism for bagliquors and no punishment for not. Many of us will go beyond the language of the contract, for the benefit of the company, provided safety, CARs limitations or fairness to others are not compromised. Many do not. Although many believe a union is a haven for lazy leeches, not all of us can be painted with the same brush.
Johnny, how does a pilot increase his value without breaking duty, CARs, being more suckie than someone with more integrity, or ending up in a wage war where someone eventually works for free. The lowest bidder is not always the best choice. I think it's common sense that sticking it to the company is the same as jamming it to yourself. Working together for the good of the company would be in everyone's best interest.
The age old debate about how much a pilots skills, experience and work ethics are worth continues. When a loyal employee can only afford to feed his family the no-name macaroni and processed cheese food, maybe it's time to reconsider the "I'd do anything to fly because I have such a romantic love for the office in the sky" attitude. Whether you call it whoring or charity or whatever, you should be able to make a reasonable wage sufficient to raise a family and live the standard Canadian dream.
I make $70K as a Metro captain. It may be more or less than others, but it works for me and I'm quite satisfied. I consider it a fair wage, as does the company, since they signed the collective agreement with no gun held to their heads. (Imagine!
) I don't need or expect to make more money with each day that passes. I've had no pay raise for many many months, yet I still seem satisfied. Some may suggest that perhaps I'm overpaid. I think not. My value increases each time I make a safe decision. If a company can't stay in business while paying their employees a fair wage, why is that the pilots fault? Maybe it's the fault of poor management. Maybe.
Now, if they paid me $40K then they'd be getting a sweet deal.
I'm so sorry that someone is offended by pilots wishing to be paid "what they're worth", but poverty wages for skilled labour ain't right.
Fly safe, all.
JV - I wasn't suggesting that a pilot increase his/her worth by breaking rules or being in a wage war - I am suggesting that pilots can increase their overall value to the company by broadening their skills in other areas (sales, non-flight ops, etc). I'm not a fan of people working for free and I believe that everyone should be compensated for their work.JayVee wrote:Johnny, how does a pilot increase his value without breaking duty, CARs, being more suckie than someone with more integrity, or ending up in a wage war where someone eventually works for free. The lowest bidder is not always the best choice.
One way someone can enhance their value without breaking duty is to broaden their horizons during layovers and down time. Just a suggestion. There are other ways - that's why I added the "Be creative" at the end of the other post.
Your defense of the union is credible and I certainly recognize your motivation for defending them. My suggestion in earlier posts was not that unions are the downfall of pilots, but that I don't always agree with their tactics. I don't believe in flexing muscle by reducing work output (work-to-rule, strike, or other strategies). I believe in establishing value through identifying plague areas and fixing them. Unfortunately, in an organized labour environment, often times the plague employees are "protected" by the unions as a show of strength or so that the union won't have to "give ground" to the employer. In these cases, negative influences are kept within companies and the problem gets worse.
The other aspect of union labour that really gets my goat is that they claim to be democratic and they claim to stand up for employees' rights and freedoms..... yet, if I want to work for the company, I am FORCED to join the union. That doesn't exemplify a lot of choice.
I'm not looking for a discussion about unions, I just want you to understand where I am coming from. As I mentioned in a much earlier post, I think that unions have much greater influence on job security, conditions, benefits and viability than they do on compensation levels - your case is a good example: in poor economic times, you are making compensation paycuts in exchange for (perceived) job security.
Also, if your employer deems you to be worth $70K, then you are not overpaid... I wasn't saying the lowest paying guys are the right ones, I was simply enunciating an economic explanation for what's happening as opposed to the tired old explanation of how it's a bunch of whore pilots costing the good guys a ton of money.
My two cents worth...
J
Hi Johnny,
I appreciate your comments, and I thank you for realizing that in asking how to increase one's value I was not suggesting that my examples were your suggestions to do so.
Many pilots do go beyond the call of duty, and I'm sure you know I don't mean negatively, like busting limits or taking foolish unsafe risks, but there comes a point, though, where you may run out of room with where and how you can be more for the employer.
Again, thanks for seeing my question as simply a question. I reread my post and thought you might percieve that it was entirely directed at you, when indeed it was just the one paragraph.
My intent is not to offend people.
Cheers.
I appreciate your comments, and I thank you for realizing that in asking how to increase one's value I was not suggesting that my examples were your suggestions to do so.
Many pilots do go beyond the call of duty, and I'm sure you know I don't mean negatively, like busting limits or taking foolish unsafe risks, but there comes a point, though, where you may run out of room with where and how you can be more for the employer.
Again, thanks for seeing my question as simply a question. I reread my post and thought you might percieve that it was entirely directed at you, when indeed it was just the one paragraph.
My intent is not to offend people.
Cheers.
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clearmyside
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Just like to add: there`s nothing wrong with taking a more socialist attitude towards pay and treatment. after all, a good company understands that it is their employees that make it successful.
here in canada we sit somewhere in the middle between the usa
(representing cut throat capitalists) and europe, where there`s a bit more understanding of what is needed for people to survive and have a life outside of work, and protect the individual citizen by stringent labour laws. we should strive for more equity, within the confines of our jobdescription and understand that everyone working has a meaningful role in making a company successful (for many people a very unpopular thought).
although, i am not a fan of unions, because of my fear that they might negotiate away my job, i still think they can do wonders for employees and employers alike. it is unfortunate that unions have to exist, because really the reason they are out there is because of business people, who do not SEE VALUE IN PEOPLE, but greenbacks.
i believe westjet might be one of the companies that genuinely tries to put their employees first, realizing their potential and by doing that creates a successful company, no union required. hopefully, they can keep it up...
here in canada we sit somewhere in the middle between the usa
(representing cut throat capitalists) and europe, where there`s a bit more understanding of what is needed for people to survive and have a life outside of work, and protect the individual citizen by stringent labour laws. we should strive for more equity, within the confines of our jobdescription and understand that everyone working has a meaningful role in making a company successful (for many people a very unpopular thought).
although, i am not a fan of unions, because of my fear that they might negotiate away my job, i still think they can do wonders for employees and employers alike. it is unfortunate that unions have to exist, because really the reason they are out there is because of business people, who do not SEE VALUE IN PEOPLE, but greenbacks.
i believe westjet might be one of the companies that genuinely tries to put their employees first, realizing their potential and by doing that creates a successful company, no union required. hopefully, they can keep it up...
You guys should read "The Southwest Airlines Way". It surprised me to learn that they are one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the US, also they have some of the most traditional unions representing them. The difference is that the employees kicked out the unions who were using strongarm tactics to extort money, they kept the unions who had a real understanding of the company's needs and goals while representing the employees. The management would not act as if it were a showdown every time they met. The result is what we see today, stemming from real understanding and co-operation on both sides.
If memory serves, the It was the management who had the foresight to allow things to progress this way from the start. This arrangement has paid off handsomely for 30+ years.
If memory serves, the It was the management who had the foresight to allow things to progress this way from the start. This arrangement has paid off handsomely for 30+ years.
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Crazed Windscreen
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Money
Fellow Pilots
The pilots at the company I work for recently elected 3 pilot representatives to represent us (approximatly 30 pilots) to management.
We also changed our pay structure from base and milage to a per duty hour wage and moved from a 5 on 2 off, to a 4 on 3 off schedule.
The resulting pay change has seen some increases for senior pilots of up to a 15% wage increase. This is considering the 4 day week as a factor of increased pay.
All of us agree we are happier, 3 days in a row in the summer is great.
All of this happened as a result of communicating with management as a group and not holding a gun to anybodies head.
If you want to affect change with your employer I suggest organizing yourselves within your pilot group. Communicate at all times with management that your intentions are for the good of the company and are not predetory in nature. And when you have a meeting set an agenda and stick to it. Don't miss an oportunity to make your work place better by turning a meeting into a bitch session
I know this may not work everywhere But we are proof that an open relationship with those that hold the purse strings can be very productive
The foundation of our company is customer service and we have recently had some huge operational hurdles in the last 2 months that have affected the bottom line, and our customers. However the pilots as a group have made an effort to be as helpful to our customers as possible and the comments reflect that.
Thats how you promote yourself because the customer is paying your wage. Keep that in mind.
Good luck out there.
The pilots at the company I work for recently elected 3 pilot representatives to represent us (approximatly 30 pilots) to management.
We also changed our pay structure from base and milage to a per duty hour wage and moved from a 5 on 2 off, to a 4 on 3 off schedule.
The resulting pay change has seen some increases for senior pilots of up to a 15% wage increase. This is considering the 4 day week as a factor of increased pay.
All of us agree we are happier, 3 days in a row in the summer is great.
All of this happened as a result of communicating with management as a group and not holding a gun to anybodies head.
If you want to affect change with your employer I suggest organizing yourselves within your pilot group. Communicate at all times with management that your intentions are for the good of the company and are not predetory in nature. And when you have a meeting set an agenda and stick to it. Don't miss an oportunity to make your work place better by turning a meeting into a bitch session
I know this may not work everywhere But we are proof that an open relationship with those that hold the purse strings can be very productive
The foundation of our company is customer service and we have recently had some huge operational hurdles in the last 2 months that have affected the bottom line, and our customers. However the pilots as a group have made an effort to be as helpful to our customers as possible and the comments reflect that.
Thats how you promote yourself because the customer is paying your wage. Keep that in mind.
Good luck out there.
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wallypilot
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That is great to hear....i have not heard of anything like that before i our industry, so good on ya!
As for the wage issue, we should all be paid fairly. The wage numbers that i put up at the beginning do not include per diems, but I think they are fair as starting points. I myself am paid fairly, and well above industry norms, with more time off that standard, but I am away much more than the average pie-lot. So, me I am happy where I am.
It would be nice to have a minimum wage....but I am sure the dodgey operators of this world would find a way around it. However, it is a good place to start, and maybe we should look for a way to lobby the Feds to look at that.
-wp
As for the wage issue, we should all be paid fairly. The wage numbers that i put up at the beginning do not include per diems, but I think they are fair as starting points. I myself am paid fairly, and well above industry norms, with more time off that standard, but I am away much more than the average pie-lot. So, me I am happy where I am.
It would be nice to have a minimum wage....but I am sure the dodgey operators of this world would find a way around it. However, it is a good place to start, and maybe we should look for a way to lobby the Feds to look at that.
-wp
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Crazed Windscreen
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Wages
The crew or a crew member is only worth a percentage of the revenue the aircraft they are flying can generate. This is all subject to the type of flight they are doing. Charter vs. Scheduled service.
A charter rates profit margin is less than a sked, however a charter usually does not incure the same expenses in customer service or facilities a sked does. FBO's usually offer all the trimings that an operator would if they offered a sked. So that is one factor in the equation.
Wallypilot. You mentioned experience as a factor in wage rates. If pilot A has been with a company for 3 years, gets upgraded to captain at 4000 per month, and pilot B gets hired in direct entry captain at 5000. Pilot A has 5000 hours, pilot B has 10,000 hours. In five years should pilot B still be making more than pilot A? Even though they do exactly the same job.
This is a concern at our company since we operate only 2 aircraft types and all pilots are qualified on both types. And have new hires to the company with more time than pilots that have been there for 5 years.
What are your thoughts
A charter rates profit margin is less than a sked, however a charter usually does not incure the same expenses in customer service or facilities a sked does. FBO's usually offer all the trimings that an operator would if they offered a sked. So that is one factor in the equation.
Wallypilot. You mentioned experience as a factor in wage rates. If pilot A has been with a company for 3 years, gets upgraded to captain at 4000 per month, and pilot B gets hired in direct entry captain at 5000. Pilot A has 5000 hours, pilot B has 10,000 hours. In five years should pilot B still be making more than pilot A? Even though they do exactly the same job.
This is a concern at our company since we operate only 2 aircraft types and all pilots are qualified on both types. And have new hires to the company with more time than pilots that have been there for 5 years.
What are your thoughts
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Hey___Pilot
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Wage Survey
Hello
Last edited by Hey___Pilot on Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hey___Pilot
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Last edited by Hey___Pilot on Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crazed Windscreen
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Anyone who accepts ANY job for less than its approriate wage dilutes the entire system.
When an operator offers a job for only time, room and board and maybe the use of the company truck, That company should be reported. Not just to the feds, but on this forum to. Once word gets out they won't last long.
Exploitation is an ugly word and there's no way in hell anyone should accept such conditions. Your pride is at stake.
I worked for a chief pilot who literaly threw a pilot out the office door for offering to work for nothing. His view was that this guy insulted him and all the pilots working for him by saying that.
That guy never did that again
When an operator offers a job for only time, room and board and maybe the use of the company truck, That company should be reported. Not just to the feds, but on this forum to. Once word gets out they won't last long.
Exploitation is an ugly word and there's no way in hell anyone should accept such conditions. Your pride is at stake.
I worked for a chief pilot who literaly threw a pilot out the office door for offering to work for nothing. His view was that this guy insulted him and all the pilots working for him by saying that.
That guy never did that again
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Crazed Windscreen
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Something else to consider is that if you are working for nothing you are not covered for WCB or EI and you better check any life insurance you may have. It may not be valid as a result. ie. the insurance you took out on the loan that got you into this crazy job to begin with.
FYI - It doesn't break labour laws if you are a contract worker. For example, a company could agree to pay you $1 per month and then cut you a cheque for $12 at the end of the year and that is considered sufficient. If the person doesn't want to accept it, they don't have to.benwa wrote:Well minimum wage already exists and is not respected by many companies... think of all the unpaid co-joes.
A friend of mine did try and bring this issue in court, since it breaks ALL LABOR LAWS. But it would've cost too much in legal fees so he droped it.
Federal/Provincial labour laws only apply to employees of corporations... Contractors are not governed by these laws since, technically, they are self-employed.
Just wanted to clear up the legal side of this argument... it's totally legal for the operators to do this, since the contractor does not have to accept the contract.
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wallypilot
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crazed windscreen has a point. as i mentioned at the beginning of the thread, one of the biggest problems is the low margins that most oeprators are subject to. And that is a result of customers demanding ever lower prices for aviation and other transportation services. The problem is systematic and pervasive. it's not so simple.
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Holy Magenta
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Depends on the market. Obviously cost is an issue, but corporate companies ( Oil, Industry) usually are more flexible when it comes to cost and are far more concerned with safety. Ie.. Contrail auditing companies and deeming if they are safe and requiring pilots to have certain minimum hours. Many of these companies have specific policies that won't even allow them to get in a budget plane. These companies have to hold to these policies, and they should be made to pay a fair and equitable rate for said experience. And the aviation companies should recognize this and hand over the cash to keep their experienced pilots and keep them happy. Its already happening huge in the helicopter industry, I know guys who get minimums to sit at home all winter because the companies need them when full season comes into effect, and they don't want to lose their pilots. It will happen in fixed wing, but obviously not broad enough, but there is hope that people with time and experience will be rewarded with it.
I agree alot with the whole discussion on both ends, ie the market economics and union protection. But the economics boys cannot deny that it hurts the industry to have guys paying for their advancement and time and working for next to nothing. This is a special situation I think that you do not find in many other fields. You don't have welders building pipelines for free waiting for their shot at job...There is just such a desire to fly in this overly romanticized industry. Economically of course, supply and demand dictates this problem because the industry is over saturated with pilots. But business wise If the industry is weak enough that companies need free employment to stay afloat, then this whole industry is extremely fragile and close to colapse, the margins can't be that tight.
Banks are making record profits, oil companies are booming, money is being made out there. Some pilots (myself included) are making good money. Competition is huge, but the scraps these companies are fighting over can't be so small that pilots in this country aren't entitled to middle class wages. I for one do not believe we should be getting big glorious salaries like the airline captains of old days past, but I do believe a person should be able to raise a family middle class and have a decent standard of living.
I agree alot with the whole discussion on both ends, ie the market economics and union protection. But the economics boys cannot deny that it hurts the industry to have guys paying for their advancement and time and working for next to nothing. This is a special situation I think that you do not find in many other fields. You don't have welders building pipelines for free waiting for their shot at job...There is just such a desire to fly in this overly romanticized industry. Economically of course, supply and demand dictates this problem because the industry is over saturated with pilots. But business wise If the industry is weak enough that companies need free employment to stay afloat, then this whole industry is extremely fragile and close to colapse, the margins can't be that tight.
Banks are making record profits, oil companies are booming, money is being made out there. Some pilots (myself included) are making good money. Competition is huge, but the scraps these companies are fighting over can't be so small that pilots in this country aren't entitled to middle class wages. I for one do not believe we should be getting big glorious salaries like the airline captains of old days past, but I do believe a person should be able to raise a family middle class and have a decent standard of living.
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Switchfoot
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Johnny, I think you should re-read the Labor Laws on what constitutes an employee. I think you will find that a contract employee is still an employee and certainly isn't considered a contractor. In fact I know of several pilots who have tried to claim taxes based on being a contractor and Revenue Canada said no way, you are an employee.
As as side note, I have read this thread with interest. I like Cat have always seemed to hit the high road of pilot wages and have never had to sell my soul to gain a few hours. I have had to fight like hell for them a time or two as well. Everyone keeps talking about profit margins and how pilots should accept less in order for the company to survive. If everyone said no to shit wages and I mean everyone, the companies would have no choice but raise their rates. The problem we have is Company A gets established, is treating the employee's fairly, providing a decent service, making a few dollars profit and along comes Company B willing to do it for 10 cents a mile less and guess what happens to wages, benefits etc.
It is not pilots doing it to pilots, it is company managers doing it to company managers and expecting the employees to pay the price to ensure a profit margin on a contract or route that is impossible to turn a dollar on.
One only has to look at WJ, AC, JetsGo and CanJet to see it on a daily basis. Down in the lowly world of charters it even gets better!!!
As as side note, I have read this thread with interest. I like Cat have always seemed to hit the high road of pilot wages and have never had to sell my soul to gain a few hours. I have had to fight like hell for them a time or two as well. Everyone keeps talking about profit margins and how pilots should accept less in order for the company to survive. If everyone said no to shit wages and I mean everyone, the companies would have no choice but raise their rates. The problem we have is Company A gets established, is treating the employee's fairly, providing a decent service, making a few dollars profit and along comes Company B willing to do it for 10 cents a mile less and guess what happens to wages, benefits etc.
It is not pilots doing it to pilots, it is company managers doing it to company managers and expecting the employees to pay the price to ensure a profit margin on a contract or route that is impossible to turn a dollar on.
One only has to look at WJ, AC, JetsGo and CanJet to see it on a daily basis. Down in the lowly world of charters it even gets better!!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Crazed Windscreen
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I had an intereesting conversation with Jim Johnston the owner of North way Air Service in Pine Dock MB about 10 years ago. He said that he had lobbied other operators in NW Ont and in MB to come up with standard rates for float aircraft to stop the chisel charters from happening.
It met with more disagreeing than agreeing so the idea was scraped. I suspect that alot of the no voters did not want to compete on an even playing field strictly from a service perspective because they no nothing about it.
That being said the problem with operators and wages will always be...
1. Who is running the show
2. Do they understand the market and are they doing things to adjust to the changes in that market.
Sound business practices will win over cheating your pilots out of wages everytime. The owner who washes the books on everything from cash only deals to riping off his staff has nothing to show a bank that his business is a viable risk when it comes to fianancing. Or for that mater insurance.
On the other hand if the company that you work for has got a great business well maintained airplanes and internal infrastucture and your still getting crappy wages, you might want to meet as a group to resolve the problem.
It met with more disagreeing than agreeing so the idea was scraped. I suspect that alot of the no voters did not want to compete on an even playing field strictly from a service perspective because they no nothing about it.
That being said the problem with operators and wages will always be...
1. Who is running the show
2. Do they understand the market and are they doing things to adjust to the changes in that market.
Sound business practices will win over cheating your pilots out of wages everytime. The owner who washes the books on everything from cash only deals to riping off his staff has nothing to show a bank that his business is a viable risk when it comes to fianancing. Or for that mater insurance.
On the other hand if the company that you work for has got a great business well maintained airplanes and internal infrastucture and your still getting crappy wages, you might want to meet as a group to resolve the problem.
