Our judicial system...

[LH]

There are some basic changes that need to made to Canadian law before any discussion takes place about pro/con the death penalty. Those changes are:

1) "Life" in the USA is just that......you will spend your last moment of life in confinement and away from the society.

"Life" in the Canadian Court system is 25 years. I believe it can be proven that the average Canadian lives longer than 25 years. Do that or remove the term "Life" from the Criminal Code because it makes a mockery of the word to any person of normal intelligence.

2) In the Canadian legal system there are two VERY important words that many Canadians do not know of and/or understand their meaning or importance.........."concurrent" and "consecutive". Simply put, if I murder 3 people, am found guilty and am sentenced to serve 3 CONSECUTIVE "Life" sentences (25 X 3), then even with a possible parole, I am gone for a very long time and in many cases will probably die behind bars. However, if I am sentenced to serve those three "Life" sentences CONCURRENTLY, then I serve all three at the same time and the absolute maximum time I spend behind bars is 25 years. If parole is possible then it is mandatory that I have my first Parole Board hearing after I have served 1/8th of that 25 years.

[Icebound]

...

However, if I am sentenced to serve those three "Life" sentences CONCURRENTLY, then I serve all three at the same time and the absolute maximum time I spend behind bars is 25 years. ...

This is false....

Parole can be denied, and you can still be incarcerated for more than 25 years in a "life" sentence.

And even if you are not, so what? If you are not apt to re-offend what does it benefit society to spend money keeping you locked up? There are something like 2000 to 3000 ex-murderers released in Canada right now and I don't see a big up-tick in homicides.

While there are always well-publicised cases of re-offense, the fact is that the rates of recidivism is reasonably low, and that the bulk of parole violations tend to be technical rather than indictable.

There are all kinds of improvements necessary to the justice system to ferret out the truly dangerous and keep them under a tighter leash.

But the argument to "keep them in jail forever" will ultimately reduce my safety on the street because it diverts funds from programs which are more useful.


...
...

[LH]

Icebound ----- let's make this simple and take your comments one at a time:

1) "Yes" parole can be denied and at no time nor in any way did I state or suggest otherwise. Please re-read my statement again for verification.

2) At NO place in the Canadian Criminal Code or in Canadian jurisprudence is there a penalty to be served for an Indictable Offense that is longer than 25 years.
**There was, at one time some years ago, a supplementary Act that was used on the odd occasion and that could keep a felon incarcerated forever and/or "at the pleasure of the Govenor-General". It was used when the number of convictions that a felon had amassed was exorbitant and there was little or no chance of any type of rehabilitation and/or they were a constant danger to society. This was known at that time as "A Govenor-General's Warrant" and has since been usurped and no longer exists

3) The record of the Federal Parole Boards speaks for itself concerning the parole of violent offenders. You quote statistics for the TOTAL NUMBER of paroles for ALL offenses, but we are discussing just one type..........MURDER(S).....including very violent ones.

4) You'll have to excuse people like myself who take grave exception to walking down some grocery store aisle and coming face to face with the person that murdered my wife or son for no good reason..........and they are now out on parole after having served just 6 years for doing so. Further aggravating is the fact that this all happened as a result of a Federal Parole Board whose members were mostly political appointees by various MP's and have little, if any, qualifications to be holding such a position. Until you've been visited at your home by some member of the law community to advise you that an immediate member of your family has been murdered or you have to do the advising, then 'you can talk the talk, but you can't walk the walk'. Don't even make a attempt to imagine what it feels like because you'll fail miserably, no matter how hard you try. Trust me on this.

5)Cost? I won't dignify that statement with an answer.

How do I know the above and how can I speak as I do? I know the above because I'm an ex-police person and I have a daughter who is presently a Federal Probation Officer. We don't always agree either, but firmly agree on some basics. We do not disaagree with parole as such.....it has value in certain cases. We take 'issue' with those deemed 'qualified' to make such decisions and the fact that many are not and are simple political appointees of some MP.
You quote statistics and those stats are the TOTAL number of paroles and NOT the toltal number of all parolees for murder in Canada.

[Icebound]

Icebound ----- let's make this simple and take your comments one at a time:

1) "Yes" parole can be denied and at no time nor in any way did I state or suggest otherwise. Please re-read my statement again for verification.

Yes you did. You specifically said: "then I serve all three at the same time and the absolute maximum time I spend behind bars is 25 years"

That is only true if you get parole.

2) At NO place in the Canadian Criminal Code or in Canadian jurisprudence is there a penalty to be served for an Indictable Offense that is longer than 25 years.
**There was, at one time some years ago, a supplementary Act that was used on the odd occasion and that could keep a felon incarcerated forever and/or "at the pleasure of the Govenor-General". It was used when the number of convictions that a felon had amassed was exorbitant and there was little or no chance of any type of rehabilitation and/or they were a constant danger to society. This was known at that time as "A Govenor-General's Warrant" and has since been usurped and no longer exists

All that may be true, but there still exists "dangerous offender" legislation with allows "the imposition of an indeterminate sentence", (to quote the Corrections Canada web site).

3) The record of the Federal Parole Boards speaks for itself concerning the parole of violent offenders. You quote statistics for the TOTAL NUMBER of paroles for ALL offenses, but we are discussing just one type..........MURDER(S).....including very violent ones.

That number 2,000 to 3,000 paroled murderers was not an annual figure, but the total number of such ex-murderers. It was based on information from the Corrections Canada Website. And although I cannot find it quickly again.... here is a statistic that I DID find:

8. Number of offenders serving a sentence for a homicide who were convicted of a second homicide while on conditional release. Between January 1975 and March 2006 there were 19,210 releases of offenders into the community on parole or statutory release (known as mandatory supervision prior to 1992) who were serving sentences for murder (9,091) or manslaughter (10,119)

Of these 19,210, 45 were subsequently convicted of other homicide offences involving the deaths of 96 people in Canada. This represents .2 percent of the 19,210 releases of homicide offenders into the community during the past 31 years.

During that 31-year period, there were more than 18,000 homicide deaths reported to police in Canada. Repeat homicide offenders on conditional release, therefore, accounted for 0.5 percent of the reported homicide deaths in Canada during the past 31 years.

In other words, 45 out of 19,000 re-offended over 30 years.... for about 3 deaths per year in a country of 30 million.

4) You'll have to excuse people like myself who take grave exception to walking down some grocery store aisle and coming face to face with the person that murdered my wife or son for no good reason..........and they are now out on parole after having served just 6 years for doing so. Further aggravating is the fact that this all happened as a result of a Federal Parole Board whose members were mostly political appointees by various MP's and have little, if any, qualifications to be holding such a position. Until you've been visited at your home by some member of the law community to advise you that an immediate member of your family has been murdered or you have to do the advising, then 'you can talk the talk, but you can't walk the walk'. Don't even make a attempt to imagine what it feels like because you'll fail miserably, no matter how hard you try. Trust me on this.

I have stated before that society should compensate victims to help dull the pain.

But it is not the place of society as a whole to provide vengeance for an individual.

5)Cost? I won't dignify that statement with an answer.

You may sneer all you wish, but human lives are traded for cost in all walks of life... Can we make our workplaces safer?... our cars and traffic system? ... Of course we can, and we might save a few lives, but do the costs justify the lives it save?

Is the cost of incarcerating 20,000 extra people for 30 years, worth the 3 lives per year that it might save.

How do I know the above and how can I speak as I do? I know the above because I'm an ex-police person and I have a daughter who is presently a Federal Probation Officer. We don't always agree either, but firmly agree on some basics. We do not disaagree with parole as such.....it has value in certain cases. We take 'issue' with those deemed 'qualified' to make such decisions and the fact that many are not and are simple political appointees of some MP.

To what level the parole system is populated by political appointees and not by carreer, trained, professional civil servants?

You quote statistics and those stats are the TOTAL number of paroles and NOT the toltal number of all parolees for murder in Canada.

No, there are the number of paroled murderers that were on parole at the time of the report, which I believe was 2005.... but as I say, I cannot locate it immediately. However, approximately 20,000 paroled murderers over a 30 year period, should easily produce around 2000 to 3000 parolees (parolded murderers) at any one instant in time.


...

[LH]

Icebound ----'Fraid you misunderstood my reference sir. There is no Indictanle offense nor Summary Conviction offense in the Canadian Criminal Code that exceeds 25 years. You know of one, then qiote the section and sub-section of the Criminal Code where that sentence is specially stated. Once again, my reference was to the terms "Consecutive" and "Concurrent". If one is sentenced to three "Life" terms in prison and one is sentenced to serve all three "Consecutive", then that means that one will serve 25 years X 3 = 75 years in prison. One can still appear before a parole board, but with that kind of sentence, their chances of parole is slim to none........not impossible. IF, however, those sentences are to be served "Concurrently", then the maximum one will serve is 25 years and it is mandatory, unless forbidden by the sentencing Judge, that one appear before a Parole Board long, long before even 20 years passes.

PLEASE do not quote anything from Corrections Canada to anyone, anywhere. By and large, there are few in the management end of Corrections Canada who could find their asses with both hands and a flashlight. You're being impressed, like many are, that since the Stat is Federally collected, it must or has to be truie. I have a daughter, who is visiting in my home at present and has been a Federal Probation Officer for many years and knows the 'system' on an hourly basis. Understand this well. Corrections Canada will submit any Stats whatsoever for your perusal that makes them look good. Absolute truth isn't something they 'stumble over' very often.

You also quote once again from the Corrections Canada website and again are 'suckered-in". Perhaps you would also quote the total number of released prisoners who were supposed to be on parole and soon after their release DISAPPEARED FOREVER. They still do it, but when is the last time you heard or read of Corrections Canada bragging about it anywhere. My daughter has a total of 35 parolees that have vanished and that's just for one small area. Last time I checked, she was employed the the Canadian Federal government also.

The vast majority of Canadian Parole Boards are political appointees, it has also been like that for eons and is common knowledge, not hidden away from anyone and never was. My daughter is not a 'politcial appointee' because she is not part of any Parole Board panel. She is asked to appear at various Parole Board Hearings and give both her verbal and written recommendations. The Parole Board members do not deal with the prisoners on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. In otherwards, they have absolutely nothing to do with a prison population until that Parole Board Hearing.

"Society" does not rule on and hand-out some of the ridiculous sentences that enrage many of us and that we hear about each and every day. Never confuse the word "Justice" with the word "truth", once inside a courthouse. The amount of "Justice" once receives is how deep one's pockets' are and how much attorney you can afford hire. So I did you wrong and I can afford a $2,500/hr lawyer or legal team. You can only afford a $250/hr lawyer. Your chances of winning your case are just about "nil", even if I am guilty.

The sentences passed down by Canadian Courts will satisfy the crime in society's minds or else that will bring the court systems into disrepute and society will loose respect for it. We are at that right point now and have been for some time. Once that happens, 'society' will increasingly dispense their own form of justice to the law breakers. That is becoming more frequent and the police forces are aware of this. As a result, the security provided for criminals before they even appear in court is much different than it was years ago.

I do and will never equate the life of an innocent human being that is taken needlessly by a murderer because incarcerating said prisoner for all of their natural life may infringe in some way on the National HealthCare System. I won't discuss that subject with someone who is "mentally challenged" because they've never had to deal with it on a personal basis. I envy you in that ignorance and would gladly trade you places.

[Widow]

There is no Indictanle offense nor Summary Conviction offense in the Canadian Criminal Code that exceeds 25 years. You know of one, then qiote the section and sub-section of the Criminal Code where that sentence is specially stated.

Either I misunderstand, or I've got one ...

Causing death by criminal negligence

220. Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and

(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.

Is "life" defined in the code as 25 years? I couldn't find it ...

[mcrit]

[quote="Widow"]Is "life" defined in the code as 25 years? I couldn't find it ...
[quote]

Yes, sadly, it is.

[Icebound]

...

LH, you, too, misunderstand my references.

I fully support your contention that the judicial system has flaws, needs improvement, requires less political interference. And for sure, there are dangerous offenders that should not be released upon the public. And for sure, some are.

Of course, the system needs improvements to prevent that from happening.

But above all, I continue to maintain that the judicial system NOT to be designed as an instrument of vengeance.

It MUST balance society's safety, rehabilitation of perpetrators, costs, compensation of victims. Perfect balance will never be achieved, and nobody will ever be perfectly happy, but that does not mean we should not try.

Perhaps the insiders with all the knowledge of its defects could help the investigative press to keep the public at large better informed. ..... After all, did not Harper promise a whistle-blower's protection legislation?



...

[LH]

Icebound ----understood. However, there is a problem with what you want. Once a case passes through a Courtroom door to be heard, tried and have a sentenced passed-down, you, me and the government have no further powers once it passes through those doors. It has now become more apparent to many in the law community that some of the leeway has to be taken away from Canadian judges. That would be done installing in the Criminal Code a mandatory minimum sentence for not all, but many serious crimes. Some Judges can make rulings on their own and they are acceptable and fir the crime. Too many others need guidance in this regard and 'a minimum sentence' handles that problem.

[albertdesalvo]

Is "life" defined in the code as 25 years? I couldn't find it ...

Yes, sadly, it is.

No it isn't. See this page and pay particular attention to Myth #10. But I suggest reading the entire page, because there's been a staggering amount of uninformed bullshit posted in this thread.

http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/whatsn/myths053001_e.htm

[LH]

I'll make one more attempt here and then move on:

I've worked the legal systam as a police person for many years. After leaving that position I was also a special cort-appointed investigator for the Manitoba Court of Appeals and worked closely with it's Chief Magistrate, the Honourable Theodore Glowacki who still holds the same position at this time. Other than the foregoing, one of my daughters has been a Federal Probation Officer for 8 years so far.

The 'base line' for a sentence of LIFE in the Canadian legal system is TWENTY-FIVE years. This came into being when the Death Penalty was removed completely from the Canadian Criminal Code by Parliament. The Death Penalty had been removed years before, but with one exception remaining: the murder of prison guards or police persons. This was then the last item to be removed and at that point "Life" became 25 years.

(1) Does the above therefore mean that the most that you can serve is 25 years for "Life". NO!
It can be adjusted numerous ways, such as (a) It can be served "Consecutively" or "Concurrently" (b) restrictions can be placed on your life after serving that time and they may stay on until you die (c) if, while doing so, you also contravened any parts of the Canadian Secrets Acts, then you'll undoubtedly 'rot' in a pentitenary. The British and Canadian Acts, in this regard, are the most severe in the western world, making anything in the United States pale in comparison.

2) Is there an automatic "nullification" of you ever receiving parole while serving a Life sentnce. NO!
It is written into Canadian law that unless the sentencing Judge rules otherwise, you must automatically appear before a Parole Board after having served 1/8th of your sentence. Once again, that period of time can also be changed by the presiding Judge upon sentencing.

3)Unless it was stipulated specifically by "the system" that Paul Bernardo was to serve ONE Life sentence and no restrictions were placed on anything to do with parole, then he might well be granted parole and serve only 15 of those 25 years, as an example. If he had been sentenced to "Life" in the US legal system, then it would have automatically meant 99 years. Given parole even, he would have appeared again in the 'world' after 50 years 'tops'.

For those who may have fallen afoul of any poor syntax on my part before, I apologize. This further explanation was directed at you then. For those with possible dyslexia, I also apologize and hope that this may further your understanding. For those who still don't believe anyway, there's really no more I can say . There is a lot more I could state concerning this subject and further examples I could give, but I'm not conducting a Law Class at some university, teaching at RCMP Depot Division in Regina or conducting some type of "Moot Court" at the local law School. Unfortunately, Canadian Law is rife with laws simply put and then reams and reams of Case Law that basically states..."Yeah but....

[albertdesalvo]

(1) Does the above therefore mean that the most that you can serve is 25 years for "Life". NO! It can be adjusted numerous ways, such as (a) It can be served "Consecutively" or "Concurrently"

Please cite the legislation that states multiple life sentences in Canada can be consecutive. There's no such thing as consecutive life sentences in this country, and a man with your illustrious qualifications should know that. Maybe you could call up your Chief Magistrate buddy and ask him for his opinion.

I offer this for your consideration: http://ww2.ps-sp.gc.ca/publications/cor ... _how_e.asp

Just scroll on down to section V (5) and have a look at this tidbit: under Canadian law, any sentences imposed in addition to a life or indeterminate sentence must be concurrent rather than consecutive

This rule derives from English case law, primarily R v Foy. In that case, Lord Parker of the English Court of Appeal stated:

Life imprisonment means imprisonment for life. No doubt many people come out while they are still alive, but when they do come out it is only on licence, and the sentence of life imprisonment remains upon them until they die. Accordingly, if the court makes any period of years consecutive to life imprisonment, the court is passing a sentence which is no sentence at all, in that it cannot operate until the sentenced man dies.

[albertdesalvo]

It is written into Canadian law that unless the sentencing Judge rules otherwise, you must automatically appear before a Parole Board after having served 1/8th of your sentence.

Gee, LH, I see you haven't come up with any law to support your statements re concurrent vs consecutive. Maybe you'll fare better on this one. Please cite the legislation. I believe your statement is erroneous, but I'm prepared to be corrected by someone as eminently qualified as an ex police officer. We civilians don't know much about the law, that's why we rely on cops to interpret it for us. HAR!

[albertdesalvo]

)Unless it was stipulated specifically by "the system" that Paul Bernardo was to serve ONE Life sentence and no restrictions were placed on anything to do with parole, then he might well be granted parole and serve only 15 of those 25 years, as an example. If he had been sentenced to "Life" in the US legal system, then it would have automatically meant 99 years. Given parole even, he would have appeared again in the 'world' after 50 years 'tops'.

Huh? Could you run that by me again?

Never mind, once again I believe you're mistaken. Bernardo was declared a "dangerous offender", and any and all sentences he was serving up, to the moment he was so sentenced, were instantly replaced by the mandatory sentence for dangerous offenders, which happens to be imprisonment for an indeterminate period. Bernardo is not doing "life", he's in a different category now.

[mcrit]

AD, dude, maybe you shoud give LH more than 5 minutes to reply before you start ripping on him......just a thought.

[albertdesalvo]

He's had plenty of time to think about it. I challenged his assertions days ago. He failed to respond to my challenge, so I've gone ahead and pointed out more of his errors. To tell you the truth I feel kinda bad about it because he's posted a lot of interesting stuff here. But on this topic he's full of shit. OK?

[Wilbur]

As a rule of thumb, subject to some exceptions for a few unusual crimes, age of the offender, rules for calculating a combination of sentences from different offences, etc, here's how it works.

Consecutive life sentences can not be imposed. A life sentence is from the date an offender is taken into custody (usually date of arrest) until they die. Consecutive life sentences can not be imposed because they would be doing so on a dead person. Life sentences have a minimum amount of time to be served before becomming eligible for "full" parole. For first degree murder the only possible sentence is life, minimum 25 years. For second degree, it's minimum 10 years up to a maximum of 25 as ordered by the judge at sentencing. For most other offences resulting in imposition of a life sentence, the minimum is 7 years.

"Day" parole may be granted after serving 1/6 of a fixed length sentence. For example, an offender serving 6 years for robbery is eligible for day parole after 1 year. Those serving life sentences are eligibile for day parole 3 years before their "full" parole date. So, a first degree murdered serving a minimum 25 years is eligible for day parole at 22 years.

"Full" parole may be granted after serving 1/3 of a fixed length sentence, or at the minimum parole eligibility date for those serving life. In some circumstances involving violent offence, the sentencing judge can order the "full" parole date to be at 1/2 of the the sentence.

"Statutory release" (formerly mandatory supervision) happens at 2/3 of a fixed length sentence. It doesn't apply to lifers.

Those serving life sentences will either be in prison or on parole for the remainder of their life. Even once released on full parole, if they violate a condition of their parole they can be returned straight to prison until the parole board decides to release them again sometime in the future.

[albertdesalvo]

Very nicely summed up, thank you.