FIRST ONE TO BUFFALO GETS A CHECKOUT

[farmerjoe]

true - the ramp is a great place to start rookies. have you heard the term "from the ground up", know the a/c, company, and ops from, literally, the ground up. once you put your time in and can demonstrate your not a retard, aka, safe and competent, time to give the rookie a shot in the seat.

problem - somewhere along the way, the boss realized they can take complete advantage of this kid, make him the janitor, pay him barely enough to live, schedule on ridiculously long hours, far exceeding any legal labor law or wcb, and treat them like stupid, lazy, and uneducated.

my 2 cents, thats the problem, not the idea of starting on the ramp, but to how the ramp position has evolved from pilot apprentice to worthless slavery. There are very few professions in society that push the entry levels this low, especially one that often involves university degrees, couple years at a specialized (flight) school, and a $50000 student loan.

[KAFUFO]

I'm confused as to why "pilots" are arguing with Doc over this.

I'm gonna go with it's because he has his head up his ass as far as the realitys of the job market for low time guys.

in a utopian sociaty there would be more positions than pilots and we'd all get a better wage, tell you what doc you go ahead and retire and everyone else will follow suit, after all utopia is going to require some sacrafices

[Doc]

[quote="farmerjoe"]true - the ramp is a great place to start rookies. have you heard the term "from the ground up", know the a/c, company, and ops from, literally, the ground up. once you put your time in and can demonstrate your not a retard, aka, safe and competent, time to give the rookie a shot in the seat.

I guess I'm kind of assuming, that since you have a CPL, you're probably not a retard. I have to assume you can actually fly. You did take a flight test, yes? Can you find "ramp slave" on your licence anywhere?

[Doc]

I'm confused as to why "pilots" are arguing with Doc over this.

I'm gonna go with it's because he has his head up his ass as far as the realitys of the job market for low time guys.

in a utopian sociaty there would be more positions than pilots and we'd all get a better wage, tell you what doc you go ahead and retire and everyone else will follow suit, after all utopia is going to require some sacrafices

I'm guessing the 30K or so you spent on your training is not sacrifice enough for you KAFUFO? It sure was for most pilots.
The reality in the job market is brought about by people like yourself, willing to be that slave. I say again...if pilots would stop allowing themselves to be exploited in this manner, they'd find themselves with jobs as pilots. How frikken weird would that be?
Companies like Buffalo are the real dinosaurs in this industry. Not guys like me. I'm actually trying to teach you how to make changes, but most are too satisfied with the status quo, to pay attention.

[trey kule]

I gotta tell you, I am gobsmacked by the logic. If I understand it correctly, you start out with the true premise that there are more pilots looking for jobs than jobs available. Then you conclude that the way to prove you are the best person for the job is to prostitute yourself working at a non-flying job.

Doc is really giving you folks some good advice. Despite all those "we get to know each other better" rationalizations, I am not convinced that the best pilot for a flying job is the one who will work the ramp. The real thinking, I believe, is that if I get my foot in the door they will love me for the sacrafice... Maybe.. but I wouldnt count on it. I would be more inclined to believe they will love you for your cheap labor costs.

Having seen many young pilots in these positions, I am not convinced they are the best people to be moving aircraft , refueling them etc. People who do it as a career seem to actualy do it better...though you dont get the complimentary resume when they refuel you.

Go to it guys. You are your own worst enemies.

[Just another canuck]

Catch 22... Fucked either way

[yzfer]

The real thinking, I believe, is that if I get my foot in the door they will love me for the sacrafice... Maybe..

I'd like to think of it this way. if you ever get a job with Joe, you'd have your foot in everyone's door at that airport, as anyone who has spent some time at that airport knows damn well that he owns the place, and to never think otherwise.

[Donald]

I'd like to think of it this way. if you ever get a job with Joe, you'd have your foot in everyone's door at that airport, as anyone who has spent some time at that airport knows damn well that he owns the place, and to never think otherwise.

Can you explain that part?

Or is this another lame troll?

[Just another canuck]

Can you explain that part?

Or is this another lame troll?

Ditto.

[KAFUFO]

hate to say it but your living in a dream world if you think that everyone is going to listen to you so pilots can stop being rampies.

I gotta tell you, I am gobsmacked by the logic. If I understand it correctly, you start out with the true premise that there are more pilots looking for jobs than jobs available. Then you conclude that the way to prove you are the best person for the job is to prostitute yourself working at a non-flying job.

you go work at Mcdonalds and wait for a phone call instead of on a ramp while your buddy goes to work the ramp. 9 times out of 10 your buddy will be flying first. I didn't say it was right I'm just saying if any new pilot reads this and thinks doc knows what the @#$! he's talking about and takes his advice. Well that new pilot is shooting himself in the foot.

[C-GGGQ]

The problem is getting your douchbag buddy not to f&^% you over and take the ramp job. What doc is saying is if new pilots would grow a pair and stop working ramp (not just some but all new pilots) then they would HAVE to hire us as pilots and get career rampies for a reasonable price. However that is idealistic as there are lots of people who will take that ramp job/ pay for that ppc/ sign that 10k bond for a 182. However if you could somehow weed those people out we'd be a lot better off. They are the problem.

[trey kule]

9 times out of 10 your buddy will be flying first.

Interesting statistic. Please share your source for such a statement. I would hate to think you just made this number up to rationalize your conclusion.

Now, the problem, as I understand it, is the idea that new pilots will have the gumption to overcome the urge to
whore themselves out is to ideal.. Well then...Lets start with the companies. Fewer of them. Fewer to influence.
Lets post the name of the good companies that do direct hiring....they are the companies that respect their pilots and you might want to consider working for. As to the rest. Well, the exploitative companies and the stupid pilots who will rationalize it all (...everyones doing it...so what are you gonna do?) deserve each other. They are the ones who will be slaves, work ofr peanuts, and then complain about the low wages. It would be interesting to know how many resmes Buffalo got for their new ramp positions.

[mattedfred]

i worked the dock most of the time at my first job but did log about 150 hours that summer. i also worked for 2 operators that required a training bond and a promisary note respectively. i regret these decisions and i know that neither of them made me a better pilot. i admit that it is easier for me to criticize those faced with similar situations today as i am where i want to be. i also admit that i never complained about the part-time dock work, training bond and promisary note as i new the score when i accepted each job. qualified pilots working non-flying aviation related jobs is sad but i think the most embarrassing thing i have seen to date is the likes of jetsgo and others demanding and getting pilots to sign a training bond at that point in their career. i thought that was absolutely shameful and set an all-time new low for canadian aviation. those guys should have known better and that they were worth more than that. the 200 hour wonders should be cut a little slack.

[C-GGGQ]

[Lets post the name of the good companies that do direct hiring....they are the companies that respect their pilots and you might want to consider working for.

I'd like some of those names

[boozy]

I suppose there's a difference between rampy and "docky". Maybe there's more to learn as a dockhand then there is as a rampy. I dont know...I was never a rampy. But I sure as hell was a dockhand. If it wasn't for being a dockhand, I wouldn't know how to do about 2 million useful everyday things. I was never underpaid as a dockhand either (as far as I was concerned) but I have in the past been underpaid as a pilot.

Things are better now for me with just plain old communication. If it wasn't for this site and facebook (Beaver Pilot Union) I wouldn't know how much to ask for. In float flying, I think there is a huge advantage to working the dock. For one thing, you really get to see how airplanes are handled...sort of through osmosis. You start to get the picture on how not to dent airplanes...even though it happens here and there. You also usually end up learning a pile of save-your-ass skills that no school or book will tell you. The pay can be low on the dock I suppose, but let me tell you it goes up if your attitude is good.

And another thing about attitude; I know this company in NWO that hired a newb from BC. They guy had his head stuck so far up his ass. He wouldn't listen, he was "always right", he told the old-timers how to fly. Had he just shut his mouth and listened, he would be flying a beaver right now easily. The platter was set for the feeding if he had any damn foresight. Anyhoo, the company hired a young Ontarian dockhand last summer who shut his mouth and did his job. The boss can't buy enough planes for him to fly....he just loves him...he'll be flying a beaver before he's 20 that's for sure. So attitude is everything.

Dockhand or rampy...either way if you take the time to learn and be part of the team....for some strange goddamn reason things seem to work out really well for those folk. If your better than those guys, then enjoy watching Top-Gun in your basement...say hi to mom and dad for me.

[yzfer]

I'd like to think of it this way. if you ever get a job with Joe, you'd have your foot in everyone's door at that airport, as anyone who has spent some time at that airport knows damn well that he owns the place, and to never think otherwise.

Can you explain that part?

Or is this another lame troll?

A joke with a bit of sarcasm in there, something that doesn't come accross to well on forums I suppose. Just look at what he gets away with at the airport. I've witnessed a couple interactions between him and some of the airport management and its almost unbelievale. No other airline would ever be allowed to park planes on the taxiway as they please, and have so much junk blowing around their lot there is no possible way to contain it. Now, ive got to give him some credit because he still has a company, so must be doing something right. It's just a long standing joke a few people I know have about him and the way he runs his company.

[Cap'n P8]

Great post Boozy!

[jspitfire]

I see nothing wrong with working the ramp. Yes, it can be hard and it's not what we went through all that training for, but I would MUCH rather be working for an airline instead of mcdonalds or walmart or wherever else while I'm waiting for a flying gig. If all of the pilots that were currently on the ramp were replaced with career ramp guys, where would all those pilots go? How could that possibly benefit any of them? There would still be the same number of flying jobs out there, so all of those pilot/rampies would be forced to find work outside of aviation.

[gianthammer]

I Concur with boozys post 100% ! !

[200hr Wonder]

I see nothing wrong with working the ramp. Yes, it can be hard and it's not what we went through all that training for, but I would MUCH rather be working for an airline instead of mcdonalds or walmart or wherever else while I'm waiting for a flying gig. If all of the pilots that were currently on the ramp were replaced with career ramp guys, where would all those pilots go? How could that possibly benefit any of them? There would still be the same number of flying jobs out there, so all of those pilot/rampies would be forced to find work outside of aviation.

I think the BIG issue that most people take is the fact that many companies (NOT ALL!) look at pilot rampies as slave labor and treat them as such. If a company is honest, upfront and pays a fair and livable wadge then no there is nothing wrong with working the ramp. However getting corn holed without so much as a reach around with that carrot of getting into the left seat of a plane one day is another issue all together. So hey if you are a CPL with 200hrs can't get a job flying the line but a company says we may have a position in a year on the line, come work the ramp in the mean time. Why not? Provided they pay you a decent wage for the work, and are honest about the position/timing to the line.

[Lost Lake]

I'm not sure I understand this thread. People go to flight schools, pay huge fortunes to get a CPL. Obviously, they haven't researched the field of work. After all the schooling, they are shocked to find out that no one will hire them except shady operators who see a sucker and either charge them or make them rampies. Would you dive head first into a lake from 50 feet without knowing what is below the water? I know this sounds harsh, but It's like going to University to get a PhD in philosophy, only to find out that no-one wants you in the business world. Gee I paid a fortune for an education, but there is no jobs.

It's supply and demand. Stop paying for PPC's, don't take ramp job. Try something else. Someone has to take the first step. There are other jobs in aviation. Buy a plane, build some time, work on your IFR, and make contacts. Unfortunately, there are too many dreamers out there who won't listen, and will take jobs cleaning bed pans on planes, in the hope it will make them more employable.

[fingersmac]

Someone has to be the first step; Easy to say that when you're not on the bottom, now isn't it.

And who said anyone was shocked to find the state of the job market in this industry? I researched all the options before and during school and I decided that finding a position at a company that has a proven ramp to flight line program was going to be my best bet to get me where I want to be. So I started on the ramp as a crewman right after graduating and 20 months later, 3 aircraft types and 1000hrs, I think I made the right choice for me. When I finished school I didn't have any money left to coast while waiting for a flying position, roadtrip across Canada, buy an airplane or get my instructor rating (not interested in teaching when I have no experience to pass on anyway). I was paid a decent wage and was treated great; I actually enjoyed my ramp experience and would do it again even if I had to spend an extra 6-12 months working on the ground.

I think the issue here is a shitty place to work. It doesn't matter what position it is or what industry it's in.. there are really awful places to work.

[mag check]

Would it maybe make more sense for the new pilot, with his fresh cpl, to forget the low pay ramp job,and abuse that goes with it, get a job ANYWHERE else(McD's, Crappy tire), forget buying the new car that all his buddys have, and buy a 15000 dollar luscombe, and pound off the hours. Fly as much as he/she can, wheels, skis, floats. Now the kid has 7-800 hours of time after the first year, knows how to fly an underpowered plane out of small area's, has good hands and feet etc.
Now sell the plane for probably 15000 dollars, and go get the job without needing to work the ramp.

If you are going to follow a career in flying, then fly.

[TheBearCavalry]

?

[Cat Driver]

A lot less than the depreciation on your new Jeep.