We need help

[Prairie Chicken]

No problem Check Pilot. You're in another region than I am, so between the two of us we can likely answer any queries folks may have.

Feel free to ask if anyone else has questions.

[CD]

...never mind...

[Rudy]

With the way things are looking with the industry for the next few years I would jump at this. I don't quite have the experience they are after yet but I'll certainly keep it in mind for the future. Thanks for the heads up Check Pilot.

[CD]

...never mind...

[Check Pilot]

Bumped up again.
We still need applications flooding into our offices.
I'm not seeing many yet. But those that have you have my undying gratitude. Thank you.
It'll take a year or two to get totally on line, but I know you are going to get there to replace us old dinosaurs that are going to retire in the next couple of years.

In the meantime-----
I'm starting to get really annoyed at guys with way too much money that go and buy aviation business's and then don't understand the way it needs to be run. We've just lost 2 here in the Edmonton region because the guys that know how to run a trucking company or confectionery company can't seem to get a handle on how aviation financing works.

However, we still need good folks to apply to TC (or to be more correct, Department of Transport) too.

Jingle bells to every one now that my rant is over.
Merry Christmas to you all too.

[just curious]

Yes, that's good to see, but who will do the monitors on us industry dinosoars?

JC

[bbb]

you know its getting bad when the team of inspectors that comes to do the company "program validation" spends a good part of the interview time asking when you're going to apply to "transport" for a job!
seriously, i've met some great tc folks, and some not-so-great folks. and have considered (and previously applied for) a job there. lets hope the good ole' dinosaurs get some input into the new blood coming in, and select those that have shown integrity and know 1st hand what's involved in running an aviation company.

[ScudRunner]

So lets say i get the job out in YWG and an opening comes up in YVR. Is there an Internal bid first or do they hire off the street? Are you locked into a location for 2 years, Are transfers like this aloud?

Tempted by the Dark Side I am hmmm

[Flybabe]

The force is strong, padawan.

[Prairie Chicken]

So lets say i get the job out in YWG and an opening comes up in YVR. Is there an Internal bid first or do they hire off the street? Are you locked into a location for 2 years, Are transfers like this aloud?

That would require a long comlex answer but the short response is "maybe". Once you are an employee you may request a transfer (deployment) to any other CAI (Civil Aviation Inspector) position at that same level. Then it is up to the manager to decide if he wants to accept you without the long, time-consuming process of running a competition, or ask you to to compete along with any other candidates. Or, you may apply on any competition at your own level or higher, as long as you meet the requirements of the position. Bear in mind that a manager may limit applicants to his geographical region, or open it up nationally. Whether TC pays relocation expenses is negotiable.

TSB & Coast Guard also have CAI's, so TC aren't the only option.

Typically managers will almost always entertain internal applicants ahead of external candidates. Going external is a very long and time consuming process. It can easily take a year to get a warm body at a desk, whereas a deployment can occur in a few days or weeks, and the candidate already has completed his lengthy and expensive initial training. In your example, YWG to YVR, I know a few years ago TC were desperate to get CAI's to VR & no-one would apply due to the cost of living & commute time. At that point I think they were even willing to pay relocation. I suspect that has changed though.

No, you're not locked into any position for any period. Having said that, if they give you a heavy type endorsement & you jump ship immediately, I'm sure they'd take you off their Christmas card list.

[SeptRepair]

I too toss around the idea of joining the dark side. Of course mine would be in the maintenance and manufacturing side of things. I figure another 10 yrs in the industry and then maybe i will apply to transport. I already have a house in the Victoria area so ultimately that is where id like to finish off my career. So what is a starting wage with Transport?

[Carrier]

Quote: “We still need applications flooding into our offices.“

Quote: “All information must be provided on-line.”
It might help if DoT would provide a mailing address or ordinary email address for applications. Most pilots have had to change jobs several times in order to work their way up the aviation food chain to a sustainable level. As a result most pilots are ready to mail off an application or submit one by ordinary email. This can be done in a few seconds when an interesting job appears. They took considerable time preparing suitable resumes and covering letters for most situations so that they would be in this position when they spotted a suitable opening or possibility. Most are not prepared to waste time redoing this process in an insignificantly different format attempting to fill in a user-unfriendly on-line application for one somewhat inconsiderate possible employer. DoT has to make itself accessible. If it is so rigid and hidebound that it refuses to consider mailed or emailed applications then that in itself is a warning of the likely working conditions and atmosphere that can be expected at DoT.

Quote: “Vacation time starts at 3 weeks a year for the first 9 years.”
It might help if DoT would offer six weeks annual vacation from year one in order to be competitive. Most pilots work to live rather than live to work. Vacation time is important to them. That is why as they progress up the ladder their time off increases. Check the advertisements that offer decent rotations as well as the vacation offered in full time jobs. Check also the jobs available overseas. Pilots can work in other countries fairly easily. Outside of the USA, Canada and Japan it is normal in any occupation to start at four weeks per annum and in any management position annual vacation usually starts at six weeks per annum. This applies in aviation as well as other occupations. Most pilots with the experience level required by DoT are going to want more than 3 weeks a year.

It might help if DoT offered some permanent positions. Most pilots who meet the requirements will already be in established full-time permanent positions that pay a reasonable salary as against having to subsidise an employer. While nothing is absolutely secure these days they do have reasonable job security at a liveable income level. Why should they give up such a position for a mere term position with DoT?

Quote: “Vacancies: Number to be determined”
It might help if DoT gave the impression of knowing what it it is doing. Pilots who want to work for a competently managed employer are unlikely to fall over themselves to apply to an operation that does not know how many employees it needs to perform its functions. Perception does matter! Is anyone in charge there? Do they know what the situation is there?

Quote: “I hear it's taking 6 months or even longer to complete a security check on an individual who has been selected for a position, and you can't get the job until the security clearance is completed.”
It might help if DoT would guarantee to get the whole process done in a maximum of four weeks, including any overseas security checking. Does DoT really expect an applicant to sit around for more than half a year after being selected (How long does that take?) to find out if they will get the job? Any decent candidate who is serious about moving from his present position will long before then have been snapped up by a private sector employer here or overseas!

It might help if DoT would explain exactly what duties would be entailed. Job satisfaction is very important to most pilots. Since there is very little flying (4 hours per month is mentioned) anyone giving up a real pilot job would probably like to know that they will be spending most of their time at work doing something that is equally interesting and satisfying. What is it?

Some positive answers to the above might bring in a few more applications!

[Prairie Chicken]

Hey Check Pilot! Where'd you go? You want to jump in here?

Carrier, I agree with much of what you say, and won't try to defend how large beaurocracies (both government & corporate) evolve in such a way as to loose sight of common sense. Having said that, DoT is one of the largest, if not THE largest department in the Canadian government. AND is also part of that bigger beaurocracy which is the Gov of Canada. My suspicion is that you are one of those that don't want to apply to TC.

With regard to submitting applications, TC & the Gov of Canada have elected to use an electronic data base. It is the process in use for the entire department, not just pilots, and includes every clerk, lawyer, manager, linguist--you name it--in the federal service. See earlier comments re big beaurocracies.

I don't know what the industry are offering now, but 3 weeks is in line with all gov't. employees. That can only change through collective bargaining, and won't change for CAIs as the Gov't. tries to keep all employees at approximately the same benefits.

I don't know where you got the idea that DoT weren't offerning permanent positions. Virtually all positions are permanent.

You mentioned “Vacancies: Number to be determined” The beauocracy likes to have an 'inventory' of suitable candidates, and will always accept applications. When you see advertisements as PNR currently have out, those are exisiting openings that they hope to fill asap.

With regard to the length of time a security check takes, I agree 100% & so do all the TC folks I know. It hasn't always been like that, and hopefully won't continue, but for the time being that's the way it it. I'm not sure who do the security checks, but it isn't TC. I think it's either the RCMP or CSIS. See earlier comments re big beaurocracies.

Job descriptions do exist, but are so out-dated and general as to be of little help at all. They are to be re-done after the re-org is finalized, but that will take years. If you're ever that interested, go talk to an inspector and find out what he does all day.

CAIs are guarranteed 48 hours per year unless they're on the 'alternate program', in which case they get training and an IR/PPC each year. Some regions &/or divisions fly considerably more than 48, some are held strictly to the 48. That 48 may be spread over the year, or completed in a short period of time. Some CAIs are happy not to have to fly anymore; others really miss it. The job satisfaction comes from staying in the industry you enjoy & are skilled in, and feeling like you're helping those still flying.

Carrier, I'm not sure that these are the positive answers you were looking for, but they're as accurate as I can give you without referring you to a bunch of policy & procedure manuals.

Happy Holidays!

PS, Check Pilot, would you leave that turkey alone & toss in your 2 cents?

[Check Pilot]

Prairie Chicken, I think you covered most of the comments that carrier stated.

As an addendum regarding the 3 weeks of vacation to start, it should be noted that overtime can be taken in time off. Compensatory time is time and a half after the normal 7 and a half hours of a regular Monday to Friday work day. Work on Saturdays is at time and a half and it is double time for any Sundays. As an example if a Saturday and Sunday are worked for 7 1/2 hours each day it can result in 3 1/2 days off in compensatory time. If you want you can instead be paid for this overtime, but the income taxes you get to pay can be a killer. Some folks carry over all their vacation time over to the next fiscal year. Some of the guys will only use comp time off for use as vacation time. Up to 5 weeks of earned vacation time can be carried over too. I don't know of a lot of aviation Company's that credit folks with overtime so the Department is definitely ahead in the time off business.

One thing about compensatory time off is that it can be, at times at the Manger's discretion so it may not always be available, depending on how the budget of the division is going that particular year. They can choose to pay out the comp. time and that decision usually happens around the end of January or early February. In some years CAI's can carry some comp time over into the next fiscal year which begins on April 1st of each year.

So it really does come down to lifestyle choices. For me, I was pretty much burned out after 10K hours of flying and found the change of career to go to work for the Department a very refreshing change. I still get to fly about as much as I want and without ANY pressure to go flying. The aircraft training we get is outstandingly well done and leaves out nothing. We operate all our fixed wing aircraft 2 pilot so it makes the flying we do very easy. The aircraft we fly are all about as state of the art as can be had and in my case with our little jets (the Citations) have just recently been upgraded to Collins Pro-line 21 avionics that are WAAS capable so we can now do LPV approaches into those airports that have those approaches published. (There isn't a bunch of those around yet but it's the way of the future).

As has been pointed out here before there can be a downside if you don't like the bureaucratic stuff that can sometimes be perceived but TC is just like any other big outfit, once you're in the "system" it kind of just becomes a different way of doing business. I tend to ignore the internal whining I hear because I like to keep up a positive outlook at the work that I do.

Hope that helps out.

Now back to stuffing my face with more Christmas food.

[just curious]

• Retirement Age
• Military Leave- yes, no, maybe
• Rough training program for basic CAI3
• Ditto for someone about to become POI for a 703/704 place
• Training courses or requirement for someone who wants to climb the ladder and become a CAI IV
• Check Pilots in the Department- Recurrent course in the Industry or CF ICP School?
• Now that Rides are on ACP's how many rides a year is that gonna be?
• TC training on say Citation or Twin Otter- FlightSafety or in house?

Okay, brain empty now, back to the grandkids.

[Check Pilot]

Retirement Age

55 is about the minimum. 35 years of service or age 60 is normal.
Pension is based on years of service. 2% per year of service based on an average of your best 6 years of salary. For example 30 years of service results in a 60% pension which is indexed to the cost of living each year.

Military Leave- yes, no, maybe

That's one I do not know the answer to. Sorry. I don't know of anyone doing that right now. We did have one guy that worked for the reserves part time a few years back but I'm not sure if the Department allows it anymore.


Rough training program for basic CAI3

CAI3's don't usually get hired off the street in the Regions. There is very few of those left in the Regions. HQ in Ottawa have CAI3 positions and are sometimes be hired "off the street." The training program is not "rough" as you put it but it is thorough and usually takes about a year to fulfil all the minimum requirements.


Ditto for someone about to become POI for a 703/704 place

POI's are appointed, as I might put it, "gently". No one gets tossed into a POI job without being pretty well prepared for the job. That can take a year or so before getting thrown into the fray and there is plenty of mentoring before hand. It usually starts with just a few Company's at the beginning and increases as experience builds.


Training courses or requirement for someone who wants to climb the ladder and become a CAI IV

CAI 4 positions are normally a supervisor position. Those positions don't come in off the "street". The position (as are all CAI applications) appointments are based on merit, which means there are competitions held where the best candidate qualifies.

Check Pilots in the Department- Recurrent course in the Industry or CF ICP School?

The ACP courses are normally done by Industry and very occasionally we do hold one "in house". I'd love to see our new Inspectors sent to the ICP course in CYWG but that has not been the practice for quite a while now.

Now that Rides are on ACP's how many rides a year is that gonna be?

I was doing about 30 rides a month in 1980. Now I'm lucky if I get to do 25 actual rides a year. Mostly it's monitoring industry ACP's instead.


TC training on say Citation or Twin Otter- FlightSafety or in house

Citation training is done at our dedicated training facility in Ottawa. Initial training takes 3 weeks and the recurrent "4 day course" that most industry folks get at FliteSafety or Simuflite is jammed into 2 fun filled weeks.

The Twin Otter and King Air simulator training is contracted to industry such as FliteSafety although we use our own instructors and check pilots. Ground training is done by our Aircraft Services Branch.

[just curious]

My '' friend" is old. "He" was thinking of the upward end for retirement.

The training program is not "rough" as you put it but it is thorough and usually takes about a year to fulfil all the minimum requirements.

Sorry, wrong terminology. I wasn't thinking forced marches and obstacle courses. I was wondering what courses would my "friend" expect to complete over a year. Auditing, I expect, and the proper way of saying " Hi I'm from Ottawa and here to help you", but what else?

[CD]

...never mind...

[Prairie Chicken]

I think I should comment on the structure. The CAI-02 is the working level, and the entry level. They top out at about 100 K/year after all bonuses & allowances. The CAI-03 used to be the supervisory level but there aren’t many of them left anymore. The CAI-04 is now the supervisory level. The CAI-05 is the managerial level. They top out at about 115 K I think, after bonuses, etc. That’s one of the problems in the organization as I see it. Managers spend all their time putting out fires & fighting the beaurocratic BS, all for about 8 K more after taxes. Not worth it in my books, but some think so.

Check Pilot addressed retirement age. Of course you can go earlier than 55. If you go before 50 you can get your pension money out & put it into a retirement plan. After 50 it is locked in until you take a pension from it. But, there are penalties if you draw down on the pension before 55, or I think it’s 30 years. The pension is a nice thing though--full benefits plus indexing.

Re training, I don’t recall what positions are available in PNR but I thought one was in Enforcement. The comments here are for a CBA inspector. Some training is generic to each inspector, like the DOIT course. Other training is directly applicable to the division the inspector has been hired into. E.g., Aerodromes & ANS inspectors get training on aerodrome standards & approach, Enforcement on legal & investigative issues, GA on licence requirements & issues, etc.

Someone asked about advancement. Once in, you may then apply on positions for which you meet the requirements. Again, requirements are set by the manager & vary from division to division. Don't forget the bilingual thing in some regions, and it is mandatory for any supervisor in most regions.

[CD]

...never mind...

[Prairie Chicken]

More info on the pension plan may be found at pensionandbenefits.gc.ca for those who care.

[CD]

...never mind...

[SeptRepair]

Hey thanks CD for the links, pretty informative. One question I have, is what do the Steps mean in the pay scale chart? Does a person go up a step after every year of employment in the category? For example is a step 6 CAI-2 the payscale after 6 years employment with Transport ?

[Prairie Chicken]

You asked

what do the Steps mean in the pay scale chart? Does a person go up a step after every year of employment in the category? For example is a step 6 CAI-2 the payscale after 6 years employment with Transport ?

Yes, you go up one step every year on your anniversary date until you reach the top of the scale. Management may offer a new entry a salary anywhere on the scale, and you go up from there. Also, if you were, for example, at the top of the CAI-02 scale & won a CAI-03 competition, you'd go to the the CAI-03 scale that was greater than what you were making as a 2.

Once you hit the top of the scale there are no more pay increases other than through collective bargaining.

[Carrier]

The application deadline has passed so let’s hope enough suitable applications came in. It takes a fully staffed workforce to push all those pencils, operate all those rubber stamps, dream up more ways to extract revenue from the victims, and expand the TC empire.

It will probably be many months before any applicant is actually offered a position. Those who have applied, and interested observers, might like to ponder on a few more points before any job offer arrives.

It is well known that there is job security with governments. In the past few months we have heard of many companies going bust or downsizing and tens of thousands of employees becoming unemployed or facing reduced incomes. Has anyone heard of any governments planning to downsize their operations or reduce costs? Worse still is that this job security apparently even applies at TC in cases of incompetence, dereliction of duty or even corruption. There have been instances of such mentioned on these pages and some of the apparent culprits have even been named. The lack of any legal actions for defamation indicates that those named accept that what was posted is true! However, they are still employed at TC.
Should job security extend to cover such behaviour and do any applicants seriously want to work in such an apparently unethical environment?

One of the posters above who apparently already works for TC states: “I'm starting to get really annoyed at guys with way too much money that go and buy aviation business's and then don't understand the way it needs to be run.”
Shouldn’t those who live in glasshouses not throw stones? Every efficiency study of government that I have seen indicates that it always costs the government at least 25% more than the private sector to provide a supposedly similar service that performance-wise is actually inferior to private sector standards. All that matters is following the correct procedures in the manual. That way the government employee will not be to blame no matter how big a financial loss or mess is created. No need to worry about customers taking their business to the competition across the street. No need to worry about cut-backs or TC going out of business as a result. There is no bottom line at TC. It will never go bust and the taxpayers and captive users will continue to pay excessive amounts for uneconomically delivered and delayed necessary functions, never mind the unnecessary add-ons. Do any applicants seriously want to work in such a soul-destroying environment?

In fairness to the few, I must mention that there are some decent government employees, who are very much a minority. They are as equally frustrated as their customers at not being able to perform in a competent and cost-effective manner. They usually end up achieving the equivalent of job satisfaction and creativity in activities away from work, such as hobbies, or return to the private sector before two years are up.
Why two years? In 1983 a former Royal Trust regional manager in Vancouver indicated that he would never employ anyone who had been in the armed forces or the public service for more than two years. His view was that anyone who had been there for more than two years had become comfortable with those standards, attitudes and way of operating and would no longer be able to function effectively in the competitive private sector!

Anyone expecting change will be disappointed. The advertised positions will attract AND RETAIN people who will fit in with those who are already there - the culprits!