Accidents are NOT Okay!

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Just another canuck
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Just another canuck »

Flying Nutcracker wrote:I'd crash an airplane when it is on fire
Didn't a guy in do that in a Navajo years back in Northern Ontario somewhere. Fire in the cockpit... They figured he just drove it straight into the ground just to end the situation ASAP. Guess the flames were too much to bear so he just said "@#$! it!!"
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Doc
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Doc »

EngineGuy wrote:
Doc wrote:Heaven forbid we should blame the crews.
What do you mean heaven for bid...? When my best friend in the whole wide world died in a plane crash about 6 months ago the first thought that came into my mind was "OH MAN WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG"

In some way, even if there is a a serious mechanical issue or other issue the pilots and crew all play a part, any accident is a chain of events, the pilot and crew are just one link of that chain, very very rarely are they the only link...

Doc your Rant was not very Doctor like, heck it was not even intern like. It was more infantile (self serving and one sided) but on that note we all have days or moments like those.
Sorry to hear about your friend. Was there a serious mechanical issue?

I'm a bit confused how this would make me "self serving" and "one sided". I think pilots are getting really sloppy. Looking forward to a safer 2009. If we all pay better attention, as a group that is, we can have a safer year.
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mattedfred
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by mattedfred »

Doc wrote:Here we go again. Heaven forbid we should blame the crews. At least until the "facts" come out. All tidy and sanitized. Reports full of warm and fuzzy buzz words so popular in the industry. Reports that come out a year or more after the fact.

But, don't blame the crews. It's not the fault of the crew the aircraft landed a mile of more from the runway. It's not the fault of the crew that nobody was flying when the aircraft landed in a wooded area just after takeoff. It's not the fault of the crew that the airplane entered IMC and rolled itself into a ball on a rocky hillside. It's the fault of the crew that the aircraft failed to stop within the confines of the runway, even if it is long enough for a B52.

It's never the fault of the crew. As their cohorts hasten to point out, these are really nice guys. It just isn't their fault.

At least, not until all the facts are in. Not until the official report is out. The politically correct report. The report written by some person, somewhere, who, knows little or nothing about what happened. Then, and only then, can it be the crew's fault. It usually is.

But, as long as nobody was seriously hurt, it seems to be Okay. I'd just like to know. Who is it Okay with? It's not Okay with the companies that are out the business. It's not Okay with the pilots being laid off as a result. It's not Okay with the insurance companies who have to write the big cheques. It's not Okay with the passengers. Or their families. It's not Okay with me. Why is it Okay with YOU??
is this a rhetorical question doc, or are you asking anyone in particular? is the accident in question hypothetical or are you trying to bring back the YYB thread once again?

accidents aren't OK with me if you're asking

the more important question is why did it happen and not whom is to blame
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Doc
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Doc »

[quote="mattedfred"
is this a rhetorical question doc, or are you asking anyone in particular? is the accident in question hypothetical or are you trying to bring back the YYB thread once again?

accidents aren't OK with me if you're asking

the more important question is why did it happen and not whom is to blame[/quote]

It's basically rhetorical. You didn't have to quote it for me though. I wrote it. The YYB thread has been opened elsewhere. Not by me though. It just seems, to me at least, that there are too many bad things happening, with nobody accountable. It seems we, as a pilot group, are getting sloppy, and deflecting the blame.

Have a good New Year, BTW
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mattedfred
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by mattedfred »

Doc,

one bad thing happening is too much

someone will be held accountable for every bad thing

the concern should be whether that someone should be held accountable or solely accountable for it

pilot error does occur but the human factors that contributed to the pilot error are more important than whom is to blame IMHO

why did the pilot make the decision he/she did?

why did the pilot say what he/she did?

why did the pilot do what he/she did?

this way we can learn from the bad thing and work to prevent it from recurring through education

subjective and simplistic statements such as pilots are getting sloppy does little to improve the safety record of our industry IMHO

Happy New Year to you and yours as well and thank you
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ipilot54
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by ipilot54 »

I agree with Doc...

Good training + Following SOP’s + DISCIPLINE = Safe Flying.

Training and SOP’s are useless if the crew does not have discipline.
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mattedfred
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by mattedfred »

ipilot54 wrote:Good training + Following SOP’s + DISCIPLINE = Safe Flying.
i agree 100% with this statement
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Brown Bear
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Brown Bear »

mattedfred wrote:
ipilot54 wrote:Good training + Following SOP’s + DISCIPLINE = Safe Flying.
i agree 100% with this statement
It seems to be a hard statement to argue with. But. There's always a but.
Some of the best trained crews in the business, with SOPs pounded into them in sims and classrooms around the world, have made some of the biggest, bone headed, stupid mistakes ever made in aviation! Many example of their shinning brilliance are used in ground schools by air lines. FO's afraid to speak up while the "old Wise One" comes in too hot, too fast. Or when he decides to depart flapless. Or from the wrong runway.
Every once in a while, perhaps somewhere inside the FAF, or the VFR equivalent, a pilot should "sniff the air" like a :bear: just to make sure everything is, as it should be. It's what I do.
:bear: :bear:
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Flying Nutcracker »

Many example of their shinning brilliance are used in ground schools by air lines
Exactly! They are factual informative examples derived from TSB reports that are used to educate crews in the hopes of preventing the same bad things from happening again. They are not hear say speculative fingerpointing accusations based on presumptions.

Sop's and training is mostly based on lessons learned from facts, don't you think???

Discipline comes from understanding the hazards and actually learning from the "WHY"-factor in SOPs and training!
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Brown Bear
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Brown Bear »

I don't subscribe to the school of thought, that to prevent an accident, first we have to have one to learn from. That's total BS. And just another excuse. If you, as a pilot, are not willing to take the blame when you screw up, I don't want to fly with you.
:bear: :bear:
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Just another canuck
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Just another canuck »

I wish I was the best damned pilot in the world... too bad that job's already filled by Brown Bear!!!

Just Joking BB... you can make mistakes, just not the same one twice is a bad rule of thumb to go by in aviation.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
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Catch the trade winds in your sails.
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Flying Nutcracker »

And then I am going back to my New Years resolution! So long everyone! FN is out of here! Literally!
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by . ._ »

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Doc
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Re: Accidents are NOT Okay!

Post by Doc »

Engineguy, check your PMs.
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