I'm wishing for that every day these days...


Just sayin' from what I've seen

Confidence equals complacency equals risk? Yes, but.

I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly you are saying blue side down.

Are you saying that pilots who learn to fly basic airplanes will be over confident?

Am I out to lunch thinking that bush pilots might be asked to fly tail wheel airplanes during their careers?

Re overconfidence- I think yes, to a certain extent. Again, it's not a blanket statement, and for the most part pilots have pretty good luck in general when it comes to surviving dumb mistakes, but take a low time guy (or anyone for that matter), pump up the ego with what they perceive to be 'rare and elusive' tailwheel time, and I'd say yes, there's a certain aggressiveness based on confidence that may come into play. It can be beneficial or detrimental, depending on the day. At least that's what I've seen in my brief experience.

On the second point, of course not- and those who have the right kind of time will get the seats.. not sure there's any issue beyond that.

Deleted

Anyhoo, addressing the topic, I worked for a place a few years ago that hired a guy with 200 hours and 100 of those were on a 180 or 185. I think 185. He did his training out of Sudbury with Marge. The boss was a little reluctant to have him there because of the low time, but get this...he couldn't find anyone else. It was sort of a fluke.

As it turned out, it was a big fluke in the bosses direction. The guy could fly the airplane right away. He knew what he was doing. It took little time to train him. The next year he was full time on the beaver. I think the extra float training in his commercial license was done just right in his case. All that being said, at the end of the day, it was also his attitude that allowed him to advance. He was probably the most humble, nice guy you'd ever meet.

I wouldn't have called him a 200 hour wonder when he started flying. He just seemed to have more experience. It could be that the Sudbury Aviation crew actually run an air service too, so you get to watch an learn how float-planes do work. If I were to do it all over again this is my best advice: VERY CAREFULLY INTERVIEW the training float pilot instructor. In those precious 200 hours, your a product of whoever teaches you. Make sure they've flown a floatplane for "a living" at some point. If they don't have....maybe...a thousand hours of commercial float flying experience then they probably won't know what they're talking about.

I got my first job as a dispatcher with 7 hours floats. Over the next year I managed to rack up 50 whole hours flying freight and empty legs. That Spring, it looked like another year of dispatching so I quit and went on the road trip, obtaining a job on a 180 flying fish in and out of a little lake in Saskatchewan to the river at Cumberland House. After another 50 hours or so, I was transferred to a base to fly a non-fishy 180 and I was allowed to fly passengers.

I guess the whole point of this is that the normal progression includes lots of line training until you are able to 'prove' yourself, then you are turned loose.

I would also rent the smallest, most underpowered aircraft you can find to do your float training in. Save your money and learn all the tricks of flying overweight, hot and glassy water. You will get checked out in anything 'larger' once you are online.

Guys;

Thank-you for all your valuable input. The response is overwhelming - ask a pilot and they are happy to share!! Thank-you!! Lots of different opinions, all very interesting. It will take us awhile to hash through the info. It is great to hear from so many with such great experience. There are so many ways to go with this. It is hard to know which is the best.

We live in Southwestern Ont. and we have a grass strip here on the farm. My son started his flight training here and shortly after, the school shut down from lack of business. He did some research and found a school in Western Canada that was all on floats. He is finishing up his private now and getting ready to start his commercial. As a father, I should probably stay out of it but I just got thinking of the money the poor guy has borrowed and wondered if he should buy a 150 and put a hundred or so hours on it right here at home as the commercial is about training but also about time building. He could then sell the 150 and head back west and finish his last 50 or so hours on floats. Just a thought! Know of any cheap ones?

Thanks again!

Buy a Champ on floats, have him fly the thing for a few hundred hours, especially under the advice of a high time bush pilot.....then sell it if you want to.

cory_trevor wrote: So you think he has just as good of a chance at landing a float flying job( not a dock job) as a guy with 7 hrs on floats, even if this guy does 100 hrs on a 180?

Just another canuck wrote: Yeah, I second that.

Slats, I don't know how you could think someone with 100 hours on floats wouldn't have an advantage or someone with 7 or 20 or 30.

Pitter, if the extra dough isn't a problem, spend it on float flying. And if it's not that much more, spend 50 in the 180/185... this way, you would already meet insurance requirements for most operations already.

Cheers,

JAC

Ok, I didn't say that someone with 100 hrs on floats wouldn't have an advantage over some with 7 or 20 or 30. All I said was that I don't believe that it provides them with enough of an advantage to justify the drastic difference in cost. 100 hours in a 172 on wheels, at lets say $150/hr for easy math, is $15,000. Using the prices people have listed below....172 on floats/$215.25/hr = $21,525.....180 on floats/$260/hr (which seems ridiculously cheap to me) = $26,000. I'm sorry, but maybe 8 or 9 years ago when I was doing my training someone could have suckered me into the idea if it had not been my money paying for it, but I just can't justify spending an extra $6,150-$11,000 just so that CP's who receive my resume will look at it for an extra 30 seconds before round-filing it 95% of the time. Especially not since it'll take the better part of your first summer's wages to pay for that. I do believe that like philly said, the resume may get a longer look, but longer looks aren't worth ten grand to me, especially since every spring plenty of guys with much less than 100 hours on floats get jobs and do just fine for themselves.

Give your head a shake, employers are looking for guys to hire with experience on type, not just any 200hr wonder.

You're exactly right, employers are looking for guys to hire with experience on type, not just any 200hr wonder. There's just 2 problems with that though. Unfortunately 100 hours of experience on type is not what this person would have. They would have 100 hours of time on type. Time does not necessarily equal experience. We all know that there's a difference, so do CP's so don't think they don't. Second problem is that regardless, they are still just a 200 hour wonder.

The more time you have flying floats the better chance you have of landing a flying job... with 100, you could get the 180... with 20 or less, you'll be on the dock.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's probably safe to say that a large number of low timers get their starts in NW Ontario. It just seems with the large number of operators there and relative simplicity of the work there it's easier for low timers to find work. Now, it's been a while since I've been in Onterrible, but I seem to recall that a good number of places operated with a "bottom rung" type of position for the new low-timers hired on each spring, and regardless of how much float time that person had, 7, 25 or 50 hours, the job was the same. Lots of dock work and if you proved yourself to be a hard-worker with a good attitude, increasing amounts of time as the summer progressed doing camp checks and things like that. I've never once heard of any CP saying to anyone, "OK, we're hiring you to be the new low-timer. Now, normally this entry level job includes working on the dock but since you have 50 or 100 hours of float time, you're obviously above that and obviously the calibre person we are looking for. You don't have to show us what your work ethic and attitude are like, we'll just assume that your time is an appropriate substitute." Doesn't happen that way. Seems to me that at most places, most everyone helps out on the dock to varying degrees dependent on experience. Even with almost a couple thousand hours on floats, if I'm not flying, alot of the time I'm on the dock helping out our low-timer/dock hand. Hell, the best job I ever had I was as a "low-timer" (500hrs floats, but everyone else was drastically more experienced) and I would be on the dock and the owner was right there beside me chucking propane tanks and pumping floats. I know from experience that a guy with a ton of experience like philly is the kind of guy that will crawl out of bed at 5am or even earlier to drive to the base to help you get ready for a flight, even though he sure doesn't have to. That's what operators want to see from low-timers, a bit of ambition and willingness to help out even when they aren't required to. I'm not saying don't try to get a straight up flying job, I'm just saying don't think you can walk into a job, especially your first one, and not be expected to help out on the dock, no matter who you are and how much time you have.

Also, I know I spent the last half of my CPL doing spins and looking at shit on the ground. The time on floats be spent doing a lot of TO's and landings.

The more float time in their log book, the better. It can only help them.

The thing is, float flying and bush flying in general is so much more than just take-offs and landings.....so much more that just can't be taught. I learned more in my first 50 hours of flying a 185 around by myself under actual operational circumstances than I probably did in all of my training combined. That in no way is a reflection on my instructors either, who were all high-time ex-bush/float drivers. I learned a hell of a lot from them, but maybe it's just me, I always just seemed to learn much more by getting out and doing on my own. Your instructors can give you a good solid foundation but it's up to you to put it into practice and develop proper skills and improve them by challenging yourself. And I don't think it should take a good instructor 100 hrs to give an average student a good solid float-flying foundation to build on.

I realize we differ in our perspective on this issue because you are looking at it strictly from the point of view of making yourself more marketable in the way that you believe best....maximum number of hours, but I believe there are a couple problems with that line of thinking. First, you're kinda putting the cart ahead of the horse, so to speak. The primary purpose of your training is not to make yourself employable, it's not even to pass your CPL (although unfortunately all too many students are taught to just pass their flight tests.) The primary purpose of training, the real reason your spending all that money, is to develop the absolute best skills and abilities you possibly can so that when you are finally out in the real world, you have the competency to keep yourself and your paying passengers safe, while you continue to learn and improve. Also, I don't believe that's the number one best way because all hours are not created equal. There are certain operators and certain areas of this country where the flying and work is simply more challenging than other places. Not only that, but unless you want to be stuck as a seasonal worker your entire career, it's a good idea to not just focus solely on floats, but to diversify your skill set to other bush-flying avenues. I think Cat Driver had an excellent suggestion with tail wheel time. Why not do that last 100 hours on a tail wheel aircraft? No more expensive than wheel training but with the added benefit of increased stick and rudder skills, and building time that looks great on a resume and believe it or not, is still in demand by some operators. Lots of pilots have float ratings, far fewer ever think to get some good old fashioned taildragger time. Plus, it's a helluva lot more fun than any 172, on floats or otherwise.

But then again, that's just one person's opinion, there are obviously as many takes on this issue as there are float pilots.

Look at it this way. If Pitter doesn't mind spending the extra dough to get his kid 50 hours in a 180, by all means, do it.

I was under the impression that many float operators require 50 hours on type on floats for insurance reasons... this is why you spend all summer swamping. The next season you can become a full-time driver. You'll meet insurance requirements.

The point is if Pitter Jr. has the 50 hours already, he can meet insurance requirements right away and would most likely be flying full-time the same season. With just the basics, young Pitter will be swamper for a season.

And my argument has nothing to do with whether the instructor is good or not. I think Pitter and his son should decide whether they want to spend the extra money... or spend a season on the dock.

No two pilots will really get started in the same way.

Most important is finding someone who will give you that first job.

Second is doing your best and being willing to learn and work.

I got started in float plane flying by getting a float rating.

Then I got lucky and flew with a friend who bought a Sea Bee for four summers to build time.

My first float plane job was flying a Cub on floats doing aerial spraying for the company that hired me and gave me the training on how to fly ag. airplanes....on wheels.

you HAVE TO HAVE 50 hours on floats to fly passengers.

brokenwing wrote:you HAVE TO HAVE 50 hours on floats to fly passengers.

lol

according to whom? isn't the whole insurance line just that? the air service i worked for never took a photocopy of my logbook or asked me to sign something stating that i had a certain number of hours so they could satisfy their insurance company. does anyone in the know really know what the real deal is?

Insurance policies may vary from one company to another, depending on how the policy was written.

I personally have never seen one that requires 50 hours on floats to be covered.

I have also never seen one with any "____ hr" stipulation. I have sent certain pilots insurance info in and had the insurance company reply with a request that the person get additional training. However it is a far more common practice when the aircraft in question is a private aircraft. ie: "Bill's Fishing Camp" operates a C-180 registered as "private" for camp checks etc...
To give you an idea. We currently do not send any pilot related info to our Insurance company. A pilot is covered by them after having completed the training specified in the CAR's and our Ops Manual. We could take a 200hr pilot with a float endorsement and allow him to fly any of our float/amphib/ski or wheel aircraft. The requirement is 5hrs for the initial company training, and our Cessnas are all grouped. So a PCC on one equals a PCC on all 3. Transition from one gear configuration requires 3 circuits. (We do have a requirement in our Ops manual for additional line indoc time on turbine equipment.)
Now before the resumes start coming. Our customers requirements are higher. We do a great deal of government work and they set the bar.
I would love to hire a 200hr pilot every year and let him work as a dockhand/pilot but it would take 3 years before he met the government minimums.
Hope this clears up some of the BS that tends to get floated around. There are very few underwriters who cover float operations. Many times when you are told by an operator that he has a 50hr or 100hr requirement. That's his way of saying PFO.

Oh crap! I guess I was uninsured when I went bombing around with my wife in an XP with 7.1 total float hours in my logbook!

.

My two cents:

There are a couple of more important things involved than 50 or 100 hours in your book when trying to land the first job after your float training.

1. Attitude of the person.
2. A strong recommendation from the one who did the training (hopefully someone with industry experience)

I would rather hear or read an endorsement from a training pilot that the candidate has a good grasp of float flying and is a natural pilot rather than "his/her dad paid me for another 50 hours" till he/she got it right.

As well, a good understanding of the real world of bush flying is critical. The reality is that if your first job flying floats is a small, Mom and Pop type place, you will be expected to do a lot more than just the fly the plane. If you are at home with this idea before you get there, you are well on your way.

A personal appearance (road trip in the late winter) or a the ability to develop a rapport over the phone during the course of a few calls can make the difference as far as I am concerned.

cessnafloatflyer wrote:At Ocean Air the 180 for 50 hours is $12995. But still nowhere near wheel prices; it just isn't possible.

I just finished the 50 hour course at Ocean Air in the fall. And I've just finished my CPL recently. Respecting the fact that I'm still new to this in the grand scheme of things, I did some serious research and then went and met Dave at ocean air before I decided to do it there and I'm completely satisfied. I had a great time and I think I learned more in that 50 hours on floats than I did in the last 100 or so on wheels. I would definitely carry on with the float training if thats what you want to do. The more time you have on the water the more options you have come job time. It's also way more fun

I agree with Cessnafloatflyer on trying to get more hours on floats. I took my 50 hour with AIr-Hart in Kelowna early Fall 2008. The instructor, Dave was also his name, and he was great. I had previously done my rating the year before but really thought I needed more hours. Dave was a great instructor and a lot better than a lot of the instructors I have had at the landplane schools I had gone to (one in Ontario and the other in ALberta). I had a few issues / bad habits but he made sure I knew what I was doing before he moved on. I got the feeling he really did care about me being a good pilot, not just loggng hours. It was just a great experience.

A couple of years ago when I was going to start a " bush pilot " course my plan was to have the students stay with me out on the wast coast of Vancouver Island and do a full immersion sort of training program.

By full immersion I mean they would spend all their time with me and the flying would be just part of the training.

The flying would be exactly the same as if they were working for a charter company with trips randomly done as if the trip was a charter into any of the hundreds of places here on the west coast that sea planes go, and in any weather that is normally flown in.

The time requirement would be dependent on the student's learning curve.

When I am satisfied that I can recommend the student for a job flying a sea plane I would give the student a letter of recommendation for having finished the course with every days flying entered in a training log.

Lets say for instance the student wanted to apply to Buffalo Airways for a job and he /she showed Joe the letter from me I'm betting Joe would take notice because he knows I do not recommend anyone who is not worth hiring.

I would not agree to train you if after the first couple of hours I felt it would take to long to bring you up to the standard, not every pilot is suited to that type of flying and I will not milk people if I think they are not suitable or ready to enter bush flying.

.,

Too bad TC makes it difficult for you to function in Canada. It would be perfect for a guy doing his CPL to integrate your type of program with flight training to pass the CPL and have it interchangeable with wheels/amphibs as well.

I had training from David Budd at Ocean Air.. he's a riot " cool as a cucumber".. LOL still remember that one.. If you are doing training fly with him

Yes I know David and highly recommend his school, however I would not work for him for the simple reason that I would not want his company red flagged by having me working for him.

There was a well known flight school some years ago that desperately needed a part time training pilot for their float plane operation and I offered to help him out.

He said he couldn't even consider it because he did not want to take the chance TC would start doing audits on his company because I was there.

This one I can prove because it was part of my case against TC.

I had been hired by a B.C. flight school to do float plane training, when a foreign student went to get his temporary license one of TC's inspectors happened to ask who was going to do his float plane rating. When he said . . the inspector said flat out TC would not approve any training done by me.

That I can prove because it happened twice and I had to go to the DGTC to get it dealt with.

If you want the name of the inspector I can give it to you because I have the proof to back up that statement.

So as you can see I never ever flew in Canada again for good reason.

The discouraging part in all this is that same prick who denied me my lawful right to work in this industry received nothing more that a reminder that he should not do that again..and he is not the only prick in the Pacific Region who I know would go out of their way to screw me over again if they had the chance.

So @#$! TCCA and the horse they rode in on I don't need that crap in my life.