CanJet Making Its Mark

[Jastapilot]

Wow, that's some union they have! Very understanding for poor Mr Rowe!

[widebody300er]

Does anybody know if CanJet is still hiring for a YVR base?

[Throttle]

When CanJet 1st contracted to bring foreign pilots over it was to augment a proposed flying schedule that they just did not have pilots for. There were no NG pilots walking the streets to hire...everyone was working.

So what was to be done? CanJet was hiring from Tier 3 operators to bring along new first officers........but that won't provide experienced captains......those FO's will need several years of experience and training before being considered for a left seat. If you don't augment then you lose the potential business and revenue that would help the company become profiatable and sustainable. So it would be good for the company and good for the pilots. And guess what, thats exactly what happened. Look at CanJet now!

Since then, CanJet has been hiring every month and continues to do so and has been hiring Air Canada pilots on LOA, CargoJet pilots, quite a few Zoom pilots and even some Sunwing pilots.....and the hiring continues monthly. There are currently over 80 permanent pilots on the seniority list.

CanJet is still acquiring additional permanent aircraft and will likely supplement for next winter with seasonal aircraft to supplement the permanent fleet. Reciprocal operations has been considered but my understanding is there are precious few opportunities available and are not a requiement necessarily....but has not been ruled out as a future possibility either. There is, at present, sufficient work to keep everyone hired in Canada year round without deploying overseas.

I can tell you that no pilots at CanJet are complaining. We are very pleased with the operational success we are enjoying and delighted that the business plan in place is ensuring a sustainable future for the pilots that here and for those yet to come.

T

[buzzjob]

The plan was to fully crew the aircraft for year round operation, and if is necessary to bring on some contract pilots with short term aircraft leases. BTW, Canadian pilots will always have first shot at these positions, you just need a current B73C type on your license. I would rather this option than to worry about leaving my family for 6 months because the company cannot keep all of their aircraft flying year round. I know guys at Sunwing ready to quit if they were forced to deploy!

[rd1331]

So what your saying is that AC, Jazz, Sunwing, WJ, and everyone else should hire people from all around the world if they cannot find a pilot in Canada with a Type Rating. That is crap. And your excuse as to the none experience for the Captain seat, then why did they bring over a single FO from Germany.....with that excuse they should have only hired German Captains and NOT German FOs.

It is nothing more than an excuse, there is LOTS of work overseas for reciprical agreements. CanJet just chooses not to look for them and instead of hiring pilots from Canada they hire from overseas.

All the pilots at CanJet should be ashamed of themselves if they think that this is good practice. Aswell ALPA should be ashamed. There are plenty of qualified pilots in Canada, and to say they aren't because they come from Tier 3 carriers is crap aswell. You go anywhere else in the world and most first jobs are on a Jet, pilots in Canada have some of the best experience in the world.

Not hiring Canadian pilots because they don't have a PPC on the 37 is a cop out, and pathetic. All the other companies instead do a little thing called Training there pilots, maybe CanJet didn't get the memo.

CanJet pilots you should hold your head in shame if you think that this is anything but pathetic.

[XMan]

So what your saying is that AC, Jazz, Sunwing, WJ, and everyone else should hire people from all around the world if they cannot find a pilot in Canada with a Type Rating. That is crap. And your excuse as to the none experience for the Captain seat, then why did they bring over a single FO from Germany.....with that excuse they should have only hired German Captains and NOT German FOs.

It is nothing more than an excuse, there is LOTS of work overseas for reciprical agreements. CanJet just chooses not to look for them and instead of hiring pilots from Canada they hire from overseas.

All the pilots at CanJet should be ashamed of themselves if they think that this is good practice. Aswell ALPA should be ashamed. There are plenty of qualified pilots in Canada, and to say they aren't because they come from Tier 3 carriers is crap aswell. You go anywhere else in the world and most first jobs are on a Jet, pilots in Canada have some of the best experience in the world.

Not hiring Canadian pilots because they don't have a PPC on the 37 is a cop out, and pathetic. All the other companies instead do a little thing called Training there pilots, maybe CanJet didn't get the memo.

CanJet pilots you should hold your head in shame if you think that this is anything but pathetic.

I don't quite understand why you say that we as pilots for ANY company should hold our heads in shame. You should know by your vast experience that we as pilots do not have any control over the hiring practices of our employers nor do we have any control over big brother ALPA (not a big fan anyhow). As an ex C3, ex Skyservice, ex Zoom, ex unemployed pilot I have come to the realization that whatever "they" do to keep my behind in the seat of an airplane is "their" business. Yes, I am a Canjet pilot now and I am NOT ashamed of wanting to feed my family and pay my mortgage when just a few months ago I was on the brink of losing everything. If you had any idea what it was like to go through this (in my case more than once) you would not be telling ANY pilot to hold their heads in shame for something they have no control over.

[rd1331]

CanJet pilots you should hold your head in shame if you think that this is anything but pathetic.

Read again.....I chose my words.....I didn't say all CanJet pilots.....I said CanJet pilots that "think that this is anything but pathetic". Sorry if you confused my words. I said those that think the practice of hiring foreign pilots when there are canadian pilots that can do the job, is alright.

As an ex-zoom pilot, another words someone who just got on at CanJet, how would you have felt if you didn't get the job because a Foreign pilot got it. Because the foreign pilot was a type rated pilot, and you weren't. So do you think that would be alright? Or do you not agree that all pilots in Canada, type rated or not, should have first crack at any job in Canada?

I agree, that a Job is a Job and that feeding your family comes first. And this is what I am getting at, why should a company be allowed to hire foreign pilots because there aren't any Canadian type rated pilots, that is exactly my whole point. Canadian pilots should have first crack, where does it stop, now that CanJet has done it. Can Perimeter, Voyager, CalmAir, Borek, West Coast Air, etc....go out and hire foreign pilots because they are type rated on the aircraft, and screw Canadian pilots out of jobs???

That is what this is about. I think ALPA should be ashamed because they represent the pilots, and should have NEVER allowed this.

[.......]

Imagine if Air Transat was asking for type rated A310 and A330 pilots when they hire.... No new hires would be Canadians!

[Throttle]

rd1331....you've got it wrong.

No Canadian pilot is disadvantaged by CanJet bringing over foreign pilots. It takes approximately 2 months to "manufacture" an NG pilot through the CanJet training program. CanJet is hiring month after month, Canadian pilots, with and without endorsements. As stated before....we are hiring, and have hired from, Provincial, PEI Air, Jazz, Air Canada, Zoom, Sunwing and a number of smaller Western Canadian outfits.

What part of ....."there are not enough experienced captains available"....do you not get? Canadian First officers...........hiring monthly....Canadian direct entry experienced Captains, when we find them: hiring monthly......and we still need to augment to manage the capacity. The CanJet training department, I understand, is maxed out.

Yes, foreign crews are brought over, CanJet can only train so many at a time and the hiring of Canadian pilots has been consistent every month. Any foreign crews hired in November are seasonal and are augmenting until the end of April.

These facts are not in dispute.

What CanJet is doing is not a bad thing. It is surviving while establishing itself as a long term player.....there may come a time that seasonal pilots will no longer be necessary... this is a stopgap measure to establish a viable business that ultimately will benefit the permanent CanJet pilots by building a financial footing that sustains the long term health of the company.

Holding my head high,



T

[Buster]

As an ex C3, ex Skyservice, ex Zoom, ex unemployed pilot I have come to the realization that whatever "they" do to keep my behind in the seat of an airplane is "their" business. Yes, I am a Canjet pilot now and I am NOT ashamed of wanting to feed my family and pay my mortgage when just a few months ago I was on the brink of losing everything.

Then there is no one (as you state) that should know better than you, that an unemployed pilot in Canada (rated or not) should have the oppurtunity to feed his family and pay his mortgage, and fend off the chance of losing everything, before a foriegn expact is given that oppurtunity. Personally, I would be ashamed, but then again it's always about me, myself and I.

As far as I'm concerned it's setting a precedence that must be stopped. I for one will be sending a letter to my Local MP!!! Hopefully everyone on this site will.

Buster

[Troubleshot]

You guys saying CanJet shouldn't hire expats to make its business function are out to fuckin lunch....what do you think they are going to do park airplanes cause a couple of King Air drivers believe they deserve their shot...please....

CanJet advertised with multiple avenues to try and find pilots, I seen it with my own eyes...you can't make 737 pilots outta thin air boys. If there weren't qualified guys resumes on file what did you expect them to do?? go door to door ??

This is the dumbest argument I've seen on here in a while...

[Donald]

Perhaps salary and stability (see "decisions made by Mr K.R. in the past") are issues in finding qualified Canadian candidates?

Can anyone post the current salary for FO's and Capts?

[Troubleshot]

We are not discussing wages here so don't change the subject, going somewhere (or not going somewhere) because of salary are personal choices. You can't complain about job loss then turn around and complain about the money too....if you don't think C6 pays enough, move on and get something else ...and as for stability ,it is in short order these days anywhere. This is CanJet's business plan people and a couple of whiny pilots will not change anything.

[Donald]

I believe it is relevant.

CJ appears to be the lowest paying 737 job in Canada.

CJ appears to be the one of least stable 737 jobs in Canada. Although the AT contract is a boost, it has a 30 day cancellation?

CJ ownership has shut the doors very quickly in the past, when the pilot group started to organize.

Factors that would affect the quality of candidates, and overall number therof?

Or am I out to lunch?

[Troubleshot]

Your not out to lunch.....but...this is the way CJ has operated for years and it is what it is. Just because they start to have alitte success people fly off the handle and start comparing them to WJ or Sunwing or whoever. CanJet is the perfect fit for some people and they are happy so I don't see why outsiders care so much about their payscales, conditions, etc...

[buzzjob]

So what your saying is that AC, Jazz, Sunwing, WJ, and everyone else should hire people from all around the world if they cannot find a pilot in Canada with a Type Rating. That is crap. And your excuse as to the none experience for the Captain seat, then why did they bring over a single FO from Germany.....with that excuse they should have only hired German Captains and NOT German FOs.

It is nothing more than an excuse, there is LOTS of work overseas for reciprical agreements. CanJet just chooses not to look for them and instead of hiring pilots from Canada they hire from overseas.

All the pilots at CanJet should be ashamed of themselves if they think that this is good practice. Aswell ALPA should be ashamed. There are plenty of qualified pilots in Canada, and to say they aren't because they come from Tier 3 carriers is crap aswell. You go anywhere else in the world and most first jobs are on a Jet, pilots in Canada have some of the best experience in the world.

Not hiring Canadian pilots because they don't have a PPC on the 37 is a cop out, and pathetic. All the other companies instead do a little thing called Training there pilots, maybe CanJet didn't get the memo.

CanJet pilots you should hold your head in shame if you think that this is anything but pathetic.

The first thing that you need to realise is, a type rating is only required for the "Temp Contracts". CanJet is constantly training new hires...Canadian New Hires...Not Type Rated.

Who says Tier 3 pilots are not qualified enough. I missed that posting. I have flown with many guys straight off a turboprop into a 767 (myself included) who were far better than others with much more experience.

The Canadian charter market is a tough business. All players compete for a small piece of pie, which last for a period of 4-6 months in Canada. What do you do to fill the rest of the year. Contrary to popular belief there are NOT LOTS of recip. contracts to be had these days. Many are downsizing and laying off. Sunwing had a very tough time finding work for 4 aircraft. It will be a slow summer for the rest in Canada. Great for time off, not so great for the bottom line.

I applaude CanJet for making it their goal to have 5 fully crewed aircraft operating year round. This was up until last December. This AT contract has ballooned the aircraft requirement to 12 for next winter. If you think that CJ can hire and train the required numbers...and you have a good plan with what we can do with the 7 aircraft and crews for the 7 months of down time, then get the facts and numbers together and pitch it to mgmnt. I am sure they could use the help, and you might be able get your 737 fo job you are looking for!!

[Dilbert Pickles]

What the hell....

Jazz starts at what 35,000? And maybe in 8 years will be over 50,000? Air Canada 37?? (Let's talk about stability)
WestJet 40? The list goes on.

Not trying to say it's all CanJet but hey let's say it how it is.... I've seen their contract and sure we all could use more money, but hey they're not paying poverty wages like some of our MAJOR airlines. They have a contract unlike some others that easily change the ops manual when they see fit. It's appears they have a good thing going and have a fantastic group of people working together to make things happen.

Why are we always our own worst enemy? I've seen better professionalism and money waiting tables as a kid.

[FICU]

...but hey they're not paying poverty wages like some of our MAJOR airlines.

$90,000 for a Boeing Captain is poverty wages and does nothing but lower the standard for the rest of us. Canjet has not only lowered the bar but they have dropped it off the scale.

[.......]

The Canadian charter market is a tough business. All players compete for a small piece of pie...

It could be a very good business if only...


And the pieces keep getting smaller and smaller when new companies emerge and steal away what others have been building for years, and in the name of what?

[Troubleshot]

...but hey they're not paying poverty wages like some of our MAJOR airlines.

$90,000 for a Boeing Captain is poverty wages and does nothing but lower the standard for the rest of us. Canjet has not only lowered the bar but they have dropped it off the scale.

Poverty....please...you don't know poverty my friend. 90k is a good living in any form. I see poverty every Sunday and Tuesday and 90k/yr is not it. I know what your saying but I'm starting to believe that most pilots are just a bunch of greedy babies and wouldn't be happy with Oprah's money.

I make a 85k a year salary and I have a great standard of life, would I like more money?...sure, But it doesn't piss off corporate AME's that are making 100k/yr that I make less for working on the same types as them.

People are so worried about CanJet...why???..Will your company lower your wages because of CanJet's scale? One small company in start-up mode with their new venture will not change the landscape.

[Dim]

All the pilots at CanJet should be ashamed of themselves if they think that this is good practice. Aswell ALPA should be ashamed.

CanJet pilots you should hold your head in shame if you think that this is anything but pathetic.

I think I hate you
Yup..........I do.

[FICU]

Poverty....please...you don't know poverty my friend. 90k is a good living in any form.

I think you understand my meaning of "poverty" as it relates to the PIC of a jet transport aircraft.

Of course $90K is a lot of money in general terms but if those at Canjet are willing to work for $90K they are also probably willing to work as PIC of a Boeing for $80K... maybe even $70K for those who are desperate enough to stay on the east coast. As you can see the lower the wage the pilots accept the further lower management will go and as we all know... there are pilots out there willing to work for nothing.

First year Boeing Captain pay for me was $130K... close to the top of Canjet's pay scale from what I have heard and I'm not at a "major" airline.

[Donald]

Will your company lower your wages because of CanJet's scale? One small company in start-up mode with their new venture will not change the landscape.

I a word, yes.

I'm sure you will come back with a line about how you have been in the industry for some huge number of years, and have experienced X number of downturns, while working at X number of companies that shut down or laid off. The simple fact is, when companies negotiate contracts/agreements with employees, they will use whatever numbers they find that justify the wage want to give out. So they can say that Canjet capt's make this, and AC/Jazz FO's make this, so we will offer this. All we can do is say yes or no. I suggested earlier that perhaps Canjet wasn't getting many qualified Canadian applicants in part due to their payscale. Perhaps not.

Keep in mind, I wish no ill on the people that work at Canjet. I simply hope they strive for industry standard wages, and more importantly living conditions that go with it (stability, schedule, days off at home and not on the road, medical and dental benefits, etc).

Every step back by a pilot group, is eventually a step back for everyone. Look at the fact that AC stopped paying per diems to new hires while they are on course. Why? Because WJ doesn't pay per diems or hotels why guys are on initial hire course. It's a race to the bottom...

[DeltaHotel]

I couldn't agree more Donald!

I think that maybe the problem is with the lower end of the pay scales.
You guys are talking about Canjet mainly but A LOT of midsize companies pay their pilots what is the equivalent of minimum wage.
That's not mentionning some companies that simply WONT pay their pilots or their training !

I have worked in a company that paid their pilots so low that at the end of the month, they had to take money out of their pockets just to make it. You ask a guy on a B1900 or a Dash8 making 25k / 30k a year if he'd turn down a job at Canjet at 70k ! It's low for a 737, but it's DOUBLE what he's making now!

I think that, just by the nature of our work, the companies know that most guys will take a shitty deal just the get the base, the aircraft or the conditions they want.

Let's face it though, 90k is not poverty. It is however at the low end of the spectrum and it's up to the people to accept it or not.
I have to agree that every pilot group that accepts a shitty pay scale, weather it is to fly a King Air or an Airbus, does it at everybody's expense.

[rd1331]

BTW, Canadian pilots will always have first shot at these positions, you just need a current B73C type on your license.

There were no NG pilots walking the streets to hire...everyone was working.

I know guys at Sunwing ready to quit if they were forced to deploy!

Nobody has been forced to deploy in years. This year it went so high 50% of the pilots that wanted to go overseas didn't get the chance. And also you are advised of the possibility when you get hired.

Imagine if Air Transat was asking for type rated A310 and A330 pilots when they hire.... No new hires would be Canadians!

Bang on!
And imagine if the Air Taxi carriers caught on, no one would get that first job, they would just hire outside of Canada.

No Canadian pilot is disadvantaged by CanJet bringing over foreign pilots.

How about the pilots that would have been hired if they had not been allowed to hire foreign workers. Aren't they being disadvantaged?

It takes approximately 2 months to "manufacture" an NG pilot through the CanJet training program. CanJet is hiring month after month, Canadian pilots, with and without endorsements.

So because of poor planning on CanJets part they should be allowed to hire from outside? No one else seems to have the trouble, Sunwing doubled there pilots in the last year, you don't see them having the trouble. They hired more pilots in 8 months than you guys have total now. They didn't have a problem. That is nothing more than an excuse, because of bad management and planning shouldn't be a reason to hire pilots from outside Canada. Look at how fast Jetsgo hired, they didn't have a problem. It can be done, CanJet just chose not to do it.

"there are not enough experienced captains available"

Once again, so why was a single German FO hired?????

The CanJet training department, I understand, is maxed out.

Outsource it. Again just an excuse. Other companies outsource when they can't do it internally. Again just bad planning and management.

what do you think they are going to do park airplanes

Not saying that just hire Canadians, very simple. And King Air drivers do a fine job at flying a 737. Get down from your horse, at the end of the day its just an airplane. Most countries around the world you go from 172 to 737.

you can't make 737 pilots outta thin air boys

Nope but if you send them to training just like everyone else does, they sure do make damn good 737 pilots.

This is CanJet's business plan people and a couple of whiny pilots will not change anything.

Ohhhh thats why.
Now that makes it all better.....That was there business plan everyone......
I'm gonna make a business plan then for an Air Taxi that only hires type rated qualified pilots....so anotherwords only foreign pilots. I hear Central American pilots are cheap, kill 2 birds with one stone. No training cost and can pay peanuts.

Who says Tier 3 pilots are not qualified enough. I missed that posting.

Someone said above that Tier 3 pilots takes years of training and experience to be ready. From my experience as a trainer, the level of experience doesn't matter to a point. It comes down to the individuals hands and feet, mental ability, confidence, among other things. I have seen guys right off a light twin that I would upgrade over someone that has time on heavy turbo-prop. Its more the individual that counts, of course experience comes into the equation, but the individual is more important. I have seen guys with 10k hours I wouldn't let taxi an airplane let alone fly in the left seat.

Contrary to popular belief there are NOT LOTS of recip. contracts to be had these days. Many are downsizing and laying off. Sunwing had a very tough time finding work for 4 aircraft.

I don't know where you got that information but it is wrong. The only thing they had trouble with was finding more airplanes to send overseas. It was not can we get contracts, but which contracts should we take, and how many airplanes can we send. They could have had a couple more airplanes over if they could find them in time.



As per wages, thats not what this is about.