endless wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Porter just have one Captain's pay level? I couldn't imagine a 20-30 year career there with a lifetime of no raises. Yes on the good years you'd get a profit share, but in the bad ones you would get nothing.

There are yearly pay raises at Porter. Consider yourself corrected!

endless wrote:Pension is a HUGE issue. I'm not sure what the contributions that Jazz puts into the DC plan they have. That HAS to be taken into account. Quite simply, that's money that you're not having to invest in your future. If you were at porter you'd have to invest twice as much, from a smaller captains wage to have the same savings.

Porter has a retirement program where the company deposits $$'s into your personal RRSP instead of a pension plan.

endless,

jazz has a DB plan and the contribution rate is employer matched at 5%

Valhalla wrote:

endless wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Porter just have one Captain's pay level? I couldn't imagine a 20-30 year career there with a lifetime of no raises. Yes on the good years you'd get a profit share, but in the bad ones you would get nothing.

There are yearly pay raises at Porter. Consider yourself corrected!

Let's not get too high and mighty there. This is a fairly recent addition at porter then, because it certainly wasn't that way not too long ago. How many years does the scale go out to now? What is the top rate on the scale now?

How much will porter put into rrsps? Is it a matching deal where they'll equal what you put in, to a certain amount? Is it based off of % of salary? I'm interested, I haven't heard of any details about this yet.

mattedfred wrote:endless,

jazz has a DB plan and the contribution rate is employer matched at 5%

Wouldn't that be a DC plan if they're matching your cash going in?

nope

Hey folks lets not get too nasty.

Both companies are good places to work. Both have pros and cons that's for sure. Pay for now is pretty equal. Scale stops at 5 yrs and is amended annually matches Jazz's pretty much dollar for dollar. Of course a bit of profit sharing brings up. (no not a dig just a fact) The scale will undoubtedly continue to match Jazz all the way up to the 13yr mark which I believe Jazz tops out at. As far as benefits go as Valhala said Pension - yes probably less than Jazz's for now but at start. Medical and dental benefits - yes, all paid by the company with no employee contributions (so no need to worry about kids teeth etc. Not sure how it measures up to Jazz's but hey its there. As far a travel you can yes you can go anywhere in the world with Porter as well. You may not be able to do it six was but you can.

Yea there is a bond. As everyone is aware by now there is no money up front just is yo leave before two years and it is pro-rated. Yes so far only one aircraft type but its a pretty nice one. But the 705 is pretty nice too. And who knows what the future holds for different types? Yes I know about the limitations of the island so no need to go there. Just making a point. Only base so far is Toronto but some guys are commuting from YOW.

As far as upgrades yeah they are quick now and will slow that is a fact. Can't argue there. (Glad I got mine when I did) As far as coworkers sure everyone is pretty good at Porter everyone gets along really well and sure if we go through a couple of mergers and such people will not be a happy at work but lets hope it never happens. I'm sure most of the people at Jazz are pretty good to work with too. Most people I know there are great and I would love to fly with them.

As I said both have pros and cons. When applying don't rule either out. If you get an offer from either company seriously consider it. They pay us to fly airplanes, that's a good start. Is there things to bitch about at both places. FOR SURE! But find a flight deck at any company where pilots can find something to bitch about.

If you enjoy where you are stay, if you don't move on. Lets not bash a place based on "well my buddy told me". Obviously both places can't be that bad seems to be lots of people working and looking to work at both.

Just my 2 cents. But what do I know right!

Cheers
MS

Metro: Good post!

Thanks Metro! Well said.

With this economy? I say take the first one that hires you.

You can have fun at both places.

Work to live, don't live to work.

I left the mortgage business and now I work on the ramp...having the time of my life...weird how things work out...

Here are the real facts on Jazz

I have been with the company for nearly 3 years now. I love it, mind you I am easy to please.

Work Rules:

12 Guarantee days off a month. Usually, unless you are on reserve, or bid inefficient flying, you will get about 15-16 day off a month.

We have a preferential bid system at Jazz where you can bid pairings, days off, etc. You can bid for 1-4 day pairings

Typical month. RJ with a block:
-15 days on.
-10 nights away from home
-9 hours days (can range from 3 hrs to 13hrs)
-3-4 legs (I have seen 6)

On the dash 8 you will work about the same no. of day but you may fly more legs (4-7) and work slightly longer days.

Turnaround times between flight, 25 minutes to 4.5 hours.

Pay:

Status pay (pay is the same on all a/c types)

This is from the Airline pilot Central, not 100% accurate but close. (actual pay is a bit more)
FO

Yr 1 35.8K/yr
Yr 2 41.8K/yr
Yr 3 $50/hr
-
-
Yr 13 $65/hr

CAPT

Yr 1 $72/hr
Yr 2 $74/hr
Yr 7 $84/hr *most likely what you will make when you upgrade give upgrade times.
Yr 16 $105/hr

Flat pay for 1st two years, then on hourly pay on year 3.

There is profit sharing, ensemble, etc.......not a lot I'd say about 1200 take home in a year total.

Perdiems, about 500-800 and month depending on what type of flying you do.

Bond

No bond for training. Like mentioned before, you do pay for half of your uniforn, I think the total came out to 400 bucks (I think, it has been a while) it is payroll deducted. If you leave inside of 2 years, you pay for your uniform.

Benefits:

Full AC flight beneifts for day one, + jumpseat agreements with 60+ airlines including some of the largest in North America . Pension, STD, LTD, Excellent medical, dental benefits, though they are pricey. Company pays for 50%. Lots fo good discounts with various retailers.

Morale:

Depends, most guys and gals are really good to work with and are generally happy. but there are the exceptions. Keep in mind this airline has been through a merger, CCAA, restructuring in the past 10 years. Despite all this there are still a lot of good top notch people here. The grumpy ones are the minority.

Dealing with ACGHS and agents can be frustrating.

Equipment


The airline is good, Overall very safe operation,

Our planes, some are old, some are new. For the most part they are well maintained. They are also well equiped. EFIS, FMS, SCDA Appr., ACARS, (for those who don't know, you can print out wx, ATIS send messages to maint. CP. etc.) , Huds on the RJ.

The flying is great, lots of variety. On the Dash, you will be doing NDB (GPS) in to a 3500 foot strip in YGP or YGR one, day. Then shooting an ILS into YUL, YOW, the next. Or flying in the mountains out west if you are lucky. the RJ you will fly all over North America. You will be in YZF, YYC, YVR, LAX, IAH one week, then BOS, LGA, ORD, ATL, YHZ, YQM, YQB the next

Training is excellent

Stability, Career progression, etc

You know what, just like any other airline.

Food for thought, we have not laid off a soul since CCAA and we are hiring 60 pilots this year. Mind this is aviation and that can all change.

Upgrades, 7 in YYZ, 12 to 16 out west. Some people commute for an upgrade.

Also, Cathay, Emirates, Westjet, Air Transat ,Sunwing, all like to and have hired Jazz pilots in the past.

Now those are the facts. I am not sugar coating any of this. Anyone that works at Jazz and cares to correct me, go ahead.

Now on to the bashers

Like I said on another post, most of these people don't work or have never worked at Jazz and thus don't have a F#$% clue what they are talking about. Not sure what their motivation is. Maybe they got turned down or never got called, maybe they are trolling, I don' know. If those are the reasons than maybe they should grow up and get over it.

BTW good post Metro, glad to hear you guys are doing well!!!

I think both companies are good, I have heard nothing but good things about Porter.

Apply to both and go to whoever calls you first.

Good luck

I think Metro and Dark Helmet share the golden post award for this thread! Well written and full of useful info. Thank you!

Those were really good posts! Now, with that info, my question is: Would you leave your present company where you have a better wage (than the entry at those 2 companies) , good seniority, and I guess, a better job security (whatever this means in aviation) to go at Jazz or Porter and be at the bottom of the list under these uncertain times.

I'm in that dilemma and don't have any nails left to chew on.

only you can answer that question

you have to figure out where you want to be for the majority of your flying career and when you retire

if you want to be at porter or jazz then try and get on with either as soon as you can regardless of any uncertainty

your DOJ will never change even you get furloughed from jazz and that is all that counts when it's time to upgrade

timing this industry is as easy as timing the market

best of luck

Work Rules:

12 Guarantee days off a month. Usually, unless you are on reserve, or bid inefficient flying, you will get about 15-16 day off a month.

Is it not true that when one holds a block at Jazz, excluding training months, they are guaranteed a minimum of 14 days off a month?

nope and to be completely accurate your minimum days off per month can be reduced to 10 days if training is scheduled outside the block

Dark Helmet, when you switch from salary to hourly are you guaranteed a certain amount of hours per month? Are the hours actual duty hours or does each leg have a standard block of hours you're allotted?

Once you are on an hourly rate you are gauranteed pay for a minimum of 75hrs per month. This would work out to about $46k for a 3rd year. A block holder would be scheduled about 80hrs per month depending on the month. Every month the company issues a bid package which contains all of the pairings (flights) available to bid on and it also includes things like # of reserve in a month and blocking average, which is the hours you would be scheduled to fly.
Don't confuse credit hours with actual flying hours. When you go to work you are paid the greater of 3 things. 4.5hr min, or half your duty day (check in to check out) or actual flight time. Your are always gauranteed to be paid for your scheduled flying even if a flight is cancelled or early. Another term you'll hear is NBG, natural block growth. Since you are gauranteed the pay for your scheduled flights, inevitably flights will be delayed or reassignments will happen increasing your pay in some situations depending on which of the 3 methods of pay are used for that day. ie. you have a 6 hr duty day with 2 hrs of flying, a one hour delay won't increase your pay, it's still 4.5 min.

Well,

I am in the best dilema I could ever imagine in my career. I just got hired by Porter and by Jazz. I've forgot about Porter for a while since, I interviewed in december 2008 and never got any news since today and I need to choose between them now. After reading all posts, both seems to be great place to work. I just don't know now. Except for having a chance to be close from my hometown with Jazz and travel benefits looks fun, Porter seems to be a good place too.

It is always like that, no job offers and nothing happens, 1 offer, and other comes in.

Anyway it's fun to be in that position!! lololol

Jay

ragbagflyer wrote:Dark Helmet, when you switch from salary to hourly are you guaranteed a certain amount of hours per month? Are the hours actual duty hours or does each leg have a standard block of hours you're allotted?

Stinky hit the nail on the head with his post. Blocking Average over the past year has ranged from 77.5 up to 85 hrs. Also, anything over 85 hours, I believe you get your pay times 1.5. unless it is Training.

mattedfred wrote:nope and to be completely accurate your minimum days off per month can be reduced to 10 days if training is scheduled outside the block

If you are really unlucky, that will happen to you twice a year (or I guess 3 if you happen to have GS and SIM on a separate month)


Cangrats, navajo-jay. I don't think you can make a wrong choice. Neither company is perfect (well, at least Jazz is not anyways, I will let a Porter guy tell you that about Porter). In the end I think they are both very good places to work.

Good luck with your decision. And Enjoy you new job!!!!! wherever it may be.

Jim la Jungle wrote:Those were really good posts! Now, with that info, my question is: Would you leave your present company where you have a better wage (than the entry at those 2 companies) , good seniority, and I guess, a better job security (whatever this means in aviation) to go at Jazz or Porter and be at the bottom of the list under these uncertain times.

I'm in that dilemma and don't have any nails left to chew on.

Jim, if we could predict the future, we would all know what the lotto numbers will be next week and retire as millionaires .

How much do you enjoy your job? And where do you want to be eventually?

you gotta take the good with the bad. If you do get laid off, you will have a shiny DH8, Q400, or a CRJ ppc and there are lots of them around.

You can go work overseas, instruct at CAE, etc. When the good times come back (and it will) you can come back with your seniority if you choose to. Also, looks like WJ, CX, EK will probably be hiring for the next couple of years as well.

All else fails, leave you present job on good terms, so tha you can go back if you need to.

Good Luck

!

The salaries at both are too low...and in regard to the commute thing...I would rather have the option of being able to live anywhere and know that even though it may be a bitch I have lots of options to get to work...which would mean Jazz...Working for Porter I would assume means you live in Toronto which is not that cheap and the traffic sucks..but likely you smile a bit more at work...and I heard the FA's are not bad:)....does Porter have any jumpseat agreements in place with anyone?

!