Wages for 180 pilot

[Slats]

Boozy: you are tellin me that if Greens(how much does a rookie otter pilot make?) called you up and ask you to fly their otter for $4000/m, you wouldn't take it? BULLSHIT! you haven't even flow a fucken otter yet.

You should know what you're talking about before you spout off.

Boozy knows. And he's being generous with his figures. I would in no way touch an Otter, Polish or otherwise for 4 a month. You can make substantially more than that on a -2 so why bother?!

I would say if it's your first gig, you could expect $3000/mo but be prepared for $2500/mo.

[cyberfree111]

Thank you for all the replies to this topic. I can see it is a touchy subject.

[bornagain1340]

I think the only one doing the "putting down" is you BF.
Saying that someone isn't worth shit because they'd rather spend a summer getting some experience with a bush operator (and maybe even some flying) for wages that are below your standards doesn't sound all that constructive to me. How about some real advice for the newbies out there that don't have a job yet???
Like someone else said, learning how build a camp, doing heavy equipment maintenance, plow a runway, and yes even mopping the hangar floor all gets chocked up to experience...it doesn't make you spineless. I'd rather be working in the industry for the summer than tell someone to stick it because I think I'm worth more than that and end up at Tim Horton's (no hours in the logbook at Tim's). Not that I'm implying on working for free...things haven't gotten that bad yet have they??

[Mr. North]

Keep in mind boys, and I'm just playing devil's advocate here; but we're in the middle of a big recession and it looks like a lot of the operators are going to be hit REAL HARD. This year will be very interesting in that regard and I'm sure the bookings for 2010 are headed way down the shitter! We've all heard how "camp owners never make any money" but this time around there may be a little bit of truth to it. Of course that wouldn't stop me from trying to get what I deserve but it's something to keep in mind when your hammering out your wage for the season.


On another note, the only benefit I see to flying an otter for 4 grand/month is that the following year you could go somewhere else and ask for 7. In the long run the sooner you get on the big machines the better (financially speaking).

[chesty]

Mr North: exactly what i was trying to say, only you said it better. unexperianced guys beakin off about how much they "should be worth" without any experiance. Fly an otter for $4000/m gets some "whiskers" then ask for the money later. I don't buy the bullshit of "I wouldn't touch an otter for that much" espcially if it is your first time in the machine, most young guys I see can't wait, some would do it for less!! How many operators are going to bargin wages with a rookie(espcially this year) demanding more money, I would think not to many.

Slats: How do you figure this Boozy knows all... he's only been in the game a couple years, I think he said last summer was his first time in a beaver, I'm sure he has lots of otter time by now. Like I said I would bet you if someone offered him 4k to fly an otter, he would. Mabe you are a hightime pilot slats, and you have some pull with wages, but I guy with 1000, 2000 will be laughed at. There is always someone who will take the seat, sure it is wrong but any way you put it "THAT IS HOW IT IS IN THIS INDUSTRY". Unless everyone is on the same side(which will never happen) take what you can get!

[Slats]

I'm not saying Boozy knows it all. No need to rag on the guy because you disagree with his opinion.

And personally, I wouldn't consider myself high time necessarily (and no, no Otter time), but enough that I can be selective, especially since I currently have what I would consider a good year-round bush job. Regardless, why would anyone want to fly an Otter for 4 a month when you could fly a Beaver and make substantially more? Because it's an Otter? Who cares?

Looking for an Otter job and looking for an entry level PA-18/180/185/206 type job are two totally different things. When you're a no-time nobody you gotta take what you can get, to get the experience and reputation/references you need. By the time you have the experience, reputation and references necessary to be applying for Otter jobs, you should expect a paycheck that reflects that.

[chesty]

sure it's just an otter,(just another airplane) but it is bigger, and bigger = more $$$. anyways, you are dreaming if you think a first year dockboy/sometimes pilot should expect $3000/m with a place to stay and food. Like I said before, most of the operators in NWO( nestor falls, red lake, kenora, ear falls) have a very smillar pay scale. It is what it is. dockhand = $1500 to $2000, first year 180/185 $2000 to $2500. mabe even less after this season, or less jobs, we'll have to sit and wait, see what happens. mabe you and boozy should go have a good cuddle.

[farmerjoe]

me... workin 32 days a month, on call 24/7
1300 bft a month (accomodations included) on the ramp soon to be...
1700 bft as f/o on a twin

say what you want, with 250hrs ur a nobody, so to fill up that logbook, bend over.

welcome to aviation, cradle the balls, work the shaft, swallow the gravy!

maybe one day il have that ATPL, flying a jet for A/C, starting at 40g, or be the assistant manager at subway for the same buk

[Cat Driver]

If all these float planes paid the same money I would take the Super Cub first and an Otter last.

[Mr. North]

...and I would fly a Norseman forever!!

[Cat Driver]

You obviously never had to hand crank one on a hot summer day.

[trey kule]

If all these float planes paid the same money I would take the Super Cub first and an Otter last.

Real good advice from the ol' Cat for all the new guys.

Let me tell you why I agree.

Many moons ago I was standing on the dock with my mentor. Guy was old and craggy. Had a brazzilian hours, and was flying the twin otter. When the otter down that day they asked him to help out and fly one of the other planes....now remember this is a guy with time on all the types sitting at the dock..185/Beaver/turbine otter.
Which did he fly......the 185. Now there I was just getting checked out on the Beaver figuring I was moving up in the world from the 185...I was more than a little puzzled that someone I looked up to would not be flying the beaver or otter.

I asked..and his wisdom was like the Cats.

Son..he said....I fly the 180... three tourists step on...it flys 20 MPH faster than the ohers..I dont make quite as much overall in mileage, but when I get there, the toursits step out, and I keep going. At the end of the day I make more money with less work...(and, not that it concerned him...more hours)

After spending 30 mins loading the beaver for a 20 minute flight, to spend another 10 unloading...and then 20 mins back, repeat, again and again all day...the wisdom sunk in that night while I was trying to shower the various smells off, and relieve the aches while my mentor was quietly enjoying an imported adult beverage or two.

Unless you have self loading cargo and longer legs, and particularily if you are getting mileage....do the math. The Beavers and Otters are beautiful creatures to fly, but in the bush the dream evaporates when you are unloading and loading all day.

....which brings me back to Cats quote...good advice...very good advice.

[Mr. North]

The beaver actually isn't so bad either. After the 3 or 4 guys stepped off, I could easily reach back into the cargo compartment while sitting in the door. I would have gained 20 lbs that summer if it wasn't for the shitty floats I had to constantly pump out.

You obviously never had to hand crank one on a hot summer day.

Thankfully those days are over! The one day my generator failed I called base on the sat phone and thirty minutes later the 180 came with a spare battery and jumper cables! Ironically enough the boat I took to meet them in the middle of the lake ran out of gas, go figure!

[Blue Side Down]

Ha! Well I suppose I've been had-


Like the general consensus seems to be, there's a lot more to it than what type you're logging in the book. How people get motivated to run the aviation rat race is beyond me.
If there's one thing that I've noticed in my few years in NWO it's that for those who hold flying as an end in itself never seem quite satisfied with where they are. On the other hand, using flying as a means to another end, well... you wouldn't believe some of the fish I've had to catch because of my 'job'.

[highlife]

2000/month on the dock, some flying, nice house air conditioning, full meals, laundry done, and supplied with beer and experience no money can buy.

[. ._]

Here's a little story that happened to me.

I was in about third year of my machinist apprenticeship working on a little CNC mill and the old boy walked over to me and said, "Ahh. You're lucky. You work on the best machine in the shop."

I was confused. He worked on a huge boring mill that threw huge chips and drilled big holes and every job was a challenge to lift with the crane or clamp to the table to prevent movement. He was working on one of the coolest machines in the shop! And I wanted to leave my little machine to learn the big stuff and become a super-machinist like the old guy.

I replied, "What do you mean? This machine can't take the heavy cuts that yours can. It has no horsepower so I can't drill the big holes and all of my parts are just little simple parts."

To which he countered, "That's good! Small machine, small problems. Big machine, big problems."

Then he trudged back to his machine.

Years later after pulling my hair out on numerous occasions working on a monster CNC boring mill, I knew what the old boy was talking about. I was making more money, but I enjoyed the little CNC mill much better. I miss that little machine.

-istp

[Rowdy]

Oh so true, when flying the 180, all I wanted to do was fly the beaver, when I got on the beaver I realised I didn't really want to move on to anything bigger. Sure a Norseman a beech 18 or an otter (twin, turbo or polish) would be more of a challenge,and more pay, but they can haul a fukk of a lot more which = less flying more loading.

As far as wages go.. when you're a dockboy with the promise to get flying that season, take whatever pay they offer you if youve got room and board.. I mean for crying out loud, you're not gonna have much if any expenses!! When you've got 100hrs in the machine and are gonna be the 180 and maybe sneak into the beaver next year, I would expect more than 2500.. personally. Now.. A couple years down the road, you're gonna need to make a living and pay for yourself for the remaining 6 months of the year which means, you need to make some money.. 5k/month for 5 months is only 25k... Kinda hard to live on. Maybe though you get lucky and it ends up being a 6 month season so you sneak in another 5k for 30k. Thats still peanuts and can easily be spent before the next season. There are quite a few jobs out there for more than 5k flying a beav. and rightfully so, there are also quite a few otter/b18/N6 spots that pay more too. You'll never get rich, but you should at least make enough to support a normal life.

As for Boozy, I know'em too. He's a smart guy and a hell of a good guy, with a good chunk of time now.

[Driving Rain]

Here is a little inflation calculator. Basicly you pump in how much money you made per month in year what ever and it'll spit out how much you'd have to earn today to get the money to go as far as it did then.
Clear as mud.
I'm going to go and have a good cry now, because I was richest and happest when I last flew a twin beech 29 years ago.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

[angry inch]

As far as wages go.. when you're a dockboy with the promise to get flying that season, take whatever pay they offer you if youve got room and board.. I mean for crying out loud, you're not gonna have much if any expenses!!

Speak for yourself...

Many who end up in that position are carrying a large debt load from the cost of a CPL. Then they get to "pay their dues"....



Wanted: Dock boy/labourer
Salary: Minimum wage
Duties: General labour, digging, hammering, LOTS OF KNEELING...
Education: Must have CPL

You can sugar coat it all you want.

There are entry level pilot jobs out there where you don't have to bend over for the "Operator"... Nobody's saying you shouldn't be willing to perform a variety of jobs/duties while not flying, that's not the issue.

It's about getting paid a fair wage, that's all.

[iflyforpie]

I can understand the ramp/dock being a certain amount good for cocky young uns who's daddy paid for their training and they need to learn about an honest day's work before being turned loose on a machine. But other than that it is only a convenience for the operator. Nobody is going to get flying experience on a dock.

So rather than hire general laborers (if they could even find ones for similar wages), they have an endless supply of pilots who will do anything for any money that keeps them out of bankruptcy, 'cause there is the elusive carrot in front of them that is a flying job.

I am so glad I didn't go into float flying the way it is described here. I still wax planes and scrub toilets, but it is without being told to do so and for a decent wage. And I got right into revenue flying my first week.

I figure if I want to live the dream of being a float pilot, I'll restore a Champ in a few years and do my own fishing.

[angry inch]

[Driving Rain]

I worked a dock for a couple of months before they turned me loose.
I did learn quite a bit from my exposer to dock flying.

I learned how to keep my ropes in good working order, something I find others lacking in.
Ropes will save you and your aircraft in some cases.

I learned how to properly tie an aircraft up so it was safe for the night even if storms blew through, which they did.

I learned how to splice and tie a variety of knots.

I learned how to handle an aircraft in wind and not have it handle me.

I learned how to treat and speak to customers, my bosses and my bread and butter.

The hard work I already knew about.

Some would find this strange in this day and age but my employer at the time gave me my float endorcement on the company 180. I'd like to think he saw something worthwhile in my attitude. In return, I gave him 8 of my best years in aviation.
This was back in the early 70's when just like now you couldn't by a job.
If I'd of had the opinion that what I was doing was a waste of time, I would have never gotten off the dock.

[Rowdy]

inch.. a lot of guys end up with daddy paying for it and thus need the ego bust and of course they can afford it. Sure it's not for everyone...

My point was, if you're going to get flying.. take the spot! If it's a ramp/dock spot that doesn't guarantee flying.. then Eff them, you deserve a proper wage.

I worked THREE jobs to pay for my commercial and came out not oweing a penny. Daddy didn't help me... And I'm not the brightest nore the most hardworking, so if I can do it, Anyone can.

[boozy]

I'm glad this debate is on-going to be honest. It's hard to imagine wages not being important. I think the talk of how much we "should" get paid is important. I know for a fact there are people worth more than what they're getting and vice-versa.

I'm a little trapped in the vortex of southern Ontario (yes, with shame) and often talk to all kinds of people about what they do and what they get paid. Down here, where there are millions of f#%$#g people, there is definitely a sense of entitlement for what I would consider just normal everyday jobs. Starting pay for a mildly educated person in mediocre demand may be around 40 000 a year for 9-5 jobs with weekends off and benefits. Now I realize that I currently only work a third of the year and thus should not get this massive sum of money for doing my every day normal job, but the point is, on a monthly scale, 40 000 a year is 3333/month.

So what am I trying to get at? Well the point is, I think there are a lot of good, capable, talented pile of people that want to work/live/fly in the bush (for a chunk of the year), that don't want anything to do with cities or IFR flying. I think that a lot of these people are industrious, they can probably make 20 000 dollars a year seem like a lot more because they can fix their own vehicles, they can can build their own homes, they can manage their own money, they can raise their own kids, and they can enjoy life with a fishing rod instead of a plasma TV. So does that mean we should foster an attitude of encouraging the new guys to take low pay (so they can earn their keep)...well it seems to be the case...because we all did. I sure did. Yes I'm a hypocrite...I can admit that...I took extremely low pay because I didn't know better, it doesn't mean that I don't want to see a bit of change or at least a bit of saber-rattling. Change is made in baby steps not in gigantic leaps, so I think a new guy assuming 2500/month is fair is good news, rather than not knowing at all what is fair.

So yeah, is a 2500-3000 month and a few perks like a cabin and running water really much to ask for as a 180 pilot? I think its more than fair. AND ALSO, I know there are jobs delivering pizza down here that pay more than flying a beaver but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit flying. What I'm going to do instead, is keep bitching so that someone else will say "yeah, I fly the bosses airplane, I build their docks, their cabins, I do their plumbing, I cut their grass...and I love I it....and someone told me I'm worth X000$/month...so maybe I'll ask for that and see what happens".

As for 4000/month to fly an otter with out mileage or hourly on top of that, I think that is low. It may have been the pay not too too long ago in some areas...but that's why I'm bitching. It's too low for the responsibility. So yes, chesty, I would not accept 4000/month on an Otter. And here's another reason why: so that I don't screw over my buddies that are making over 6000/month on the otter. Things are on the up and up if we'd stop kicking ourselves in the balls/ovaries.

One more thing, thanks to those folks for saying I'm an okay guy...too nice...I don't even know who most of ya are from your pseudonyms which is fine...i don't want to know. I sort of made the mistake of picking my nickname for a pseudonym, so I really do get called Boozy in real life and can't hide from any future employers reading this (nothing inferred folks...just me being dumb), so if anyone find's themselves working with me one day, you'll quickly know who I am and what I've written. I'm open to any debate on these issues in person. I wont make red-herrings out of a debate by making fun of people (so Chesty, I apologize for saying your out of touch and don't have a clue...I saw your online resume...your a lot more experienced than me...so get paid for it).

Also...if my actual boss is reading this...thanks for paying fair wages...I'll earn it.

[180]

I made $10 an hour out West as a dock guy with a shitty leaky mouse infested (but free) trailer to live in.

I made $2500 a month out East the following year as a 185 pilot with a decent mouse infested (free) cabin to live in.

As a dock guy in BC, I made almost exactly as much as a 185 pilot in NWO.