Almost every flight a 748 flew was either over gross, or over landing weight, by the weight of the pallets. These were NEVER included on any manifest. Ever. Because Wasaya couldn't charge for the extra weight. We're talking 1200 pounds here....give or take 100! I butted heads with the "penis fish" over this countless times. He hated my guts for this. Do you still use pallets? Are they on the manifest? Be wiling to bet you're still doing it.
Easy Doc, now that SMS is here these things could never happen.
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Just another canuck wrote:
Don't forget the straps and cookie sheets... probably wooden in your day, but teflon or similar material now. That would be another at least 1000 pounds.
I forgot about the cookie sheets! Do they still operate like this???
fingersmac wrote:Pallet, strap and cookie sheet weights are all accounted for in the weight and balance.
Then why is a hand bomb bulk load the same as a load of groceries to the the same destination where cookie sheets and pallets would be involved? How can you possibly explain that. The number doesn't change... at least it was like this only 4 years ago. And why didn't the load change when they switched from a 10 pound wooden cookie sheet to a 40 pound teflon one? And the load doesn't change based on the type of pallet... 40 to 80 pounds... the load to said destination never changes and the cookie sheets and straps never come out of the airplane. Also, when the freighter runs fuel, why doesn't the number change... the weight of the tanks are accounted for, right?
If there's a logical explanation, I'd be more than happy to retract my statement and apologize.
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
I don't know how it was four years ago. I just know how things are in the last couple years I've been here.
For the big door freighters, the straps and cookie sheets are accounted for in the DOW. When a load is put together, it is weighed up, pallets and all. The loadmaster notes each skid, its weight and location in the airplane. When the freighters run fuel, there is a separate weight and balance noting the weight of each tank and their location in the aircraft.
fingersmac wrote:I don't know how it was four years ago. I just know how things are in the last couple years I've been here.
For the big door freighters, the straps and cookie sheets are accounted for in the DOW. When a load is put together, it is weighed up, pallets and all. The loadmaster notes each skid, its weight and location in the airplane. When the freighters run fuel, there is a separate weight and balance noting the weight of each tank and their location in the aircraft.
If true, it's a step in the right direction. Sure didn't used to be. I had many hissy fits with the big dink over the subject. I'm still a little skeptical though.
Still like to see an audit.
fingersmac is right. Pallets, straps and cookie sheets are acounted for now, although i believe the water meth is still an issue though. As far as I know if an aircraft here is overweight it's whatever "granny gas" the crew decides to put on and that's it.
As far as I know if an aircraft here is overweight it's whatever "granny gas" the crew decides to put on and that's it.
In other words the company culture has changed from across the board disregard for the rules to selective disregard of the rules by pilots willing to overload an airplane rather than stay within the rules?
Does your chief pilot know about this?
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
As far as I know if an aircraft here is overweight it's whatever "granny gas" the crew decides to put on and that's it.
In other words the company culture has changed from across the board disregard for the rules to selective disregard of the rules by pilots willing to overload an airplane rather than stay within the rules?
Does your chief pilot know about this?
For the Caravan, the granny gas thing is true... for the Hawker, I'm not convinced. The weight of the aircraft never changed when they switched from wooden to teflon cookie sheets. The difference was just so large the money lost would be astronomical. And when they weigh the pallets of groceries/whatever, the weight of the pallet is subtracted from the number on the scale and written on the manifest. If it's changed great, but for it to change they would have lost in the region of 2000 pounds for any given trip. That's a lot of cash and to believe they've really changed that much is a hard pill to swallow.
What's the useful load on the Hawker now?
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
fingersmac wrote:I don't know how it was four years ago. I just know how things are in the last couple years I've been here.
For the big door freighters, the straps and cookie sheets are accounted for in the DOW. When a load is put together, it is weighed up, pallets and all. The loadmaster notes each skid, its weight and location in the airplane. When the freighters run fuel, there is a separate weight and balance noting the weight of each tank and their location in the aircraft.
Yes Doc, I can confirm this is true. It had just been implemented when I arrived in Mar 06.
I remember NW complaining about losing 1400 lbs a load due to "people whining".. I assured him I was in complete agreement with "the whiners" including the pallets, herc straps & cookie sheets in the DOW. NW is a good guy, just never flown so he only saw the loss of overall useful load. It was a tough sell from what I understand from some of the senior guys there.. but Wasaya had finally adopted this as policy.
fingersmac wrote:I don't know how it was four years ago. I just know how things are in the last couple years I've been here.
For the big door freighters, the straps and cookie sheets are accounted for in the DOW. When a load is put together, it is weighed up, pallets and all. The loadmaster notes each skid, its weight and location in the airplane. When the freighters run fuel, there is a separate weight and balance noting the weight of each tank and their location in the aircraft.
Yes Doc, I can confirm this is true. It had just been implemented when I arrived in Mar 06.
I remember NW complaining about losing 1400 lbs a load due to "people whining".. I assured him I was in complete agreement with "the whiners" including the pallets, herc straps & cookie sheets in the DOW. NW is a good guy, just never flown so he only saw the loss of overall useful load. It was a tough sell from what I understand from some of the senior guys there.. but Wasaya had finally adopted this as policy.
Fly safe all.
Thanks for the confirmation on that flyinthebug. They've changed... great.
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Only on the really long over water routes. Like YRL to YPM. Poor chaps go over at least three lakes on that one. Best fill her to the tits!
Does the company reward them with a bonus for going the extra mile to ensure maximum profit .......sort of a danger pay bonus for flying over weight .........like one would get for the danger risk flying in a war zone?
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat Driver wrote:Why would any pilot go over the gross weight limits of the airplane to add fuel?
I try my very best and succeed 99.4% of the time (roughly) to not fly over gross, but ive thrown an extra 100 lbs or so on the odd time.
why? because there was weather along the route and that extra fuel made me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.
Cat, you can only say youve never done this, with the exception of overseas flights?
Every pilot knows the implications of flying over weight. If a pilot decideds to put more fuel on for "contingincies" it's totally up to them. I'm sure the captian is not going to call the chief pilot and say "oh i put on more fuel than I needed today". If they decided to do it it's their decision, they know the risks of doing it and either choose to or not, if the f/o feels unsafe then they should speak up and say something or just not go. I'm sure it goes on at alot more compaies than just this one.
I try my very best and succeed 99.4% of the time (roughly) to not fly over gross, but ive thrown an extra 100 lbs or so on the odd time.
why? because there was weather along the route and that extra fuel made me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.
Yes, I am aware that pilots will add extra fuel to make them feel warm and fuzzy even though it will exceed the aircraft's maximum gross weight.
Cat, you can only say youve never done this, with the exception of overseas flights?
Like most pilots in this industry there was a time when I did this because I allowed peer pressure and the culture of get e'r done at all costs to over ride common sense.
However I changed that mindset many decades ago.
It may interest you to know that when I owned an AOC I had all new pilots sign an agreement that I would fire them for any contravention of the rules. And by signing said agreement they were agreeing to loss of employment if they deliberately broke the regulations as laid out by TCCA.
Was I being unfair?
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
You were being very fair, and I wish all operators would do this, it would make our jobs much easier. At least here I can say that we are not pressured by managment to fly overweight. That may have been the case in the past but not any more. If we decided to put on that extra 100 or 200 lbs of gas that's up to us and nobody else. If someone gets busted for having the extra fuel on board they have no body to blame but them self for it.
The reality is when we make a decision to over load an airplane we risk the chance that if the airplane has a mechanical failure and there is an accident and it is found we were over the gross weight limit the C of A is void.....and we are responsible for it.
In my simple mind the risk is not worth any perceived gain.
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
