Wasaya Union Professionalism vs Wasaya Layoffs

[Rog]

teacher,
I too have often wondered what the hell geographic location has to do with anything. Working conditions, commitment to safety, and following regulations seem to be inversely proportional to the geographic distance to the nearest Transport Canada office. Why is this the case?

[Doc]

At Wasaya, the working conditions, pay and equipment are pretty top drawer. So are their crews. I've never had a complaint with a Wasaya pilot. I've like every one of them I've been lucky enough to meet in the north.
I would hope some sort of "organization" would help the new hires. When I worked there, there was no protection from the bullies in middle and upper management, who, quite frankly were not qualified to participate in a "circle jerk".
No Cat, the crews aren't the problem. Never have been.

[Rudy]

Is laying off 2 first officers really worth it to an operator this size? Anyone who has worked for a company with lay offs knows what it does to the morale of employees. I bet this ends up costing them more than it saved them.

[CLguy]

Cat stated:

Highly trained and professional pilots wouldn't work for such operators.

Jeez Cat you worked for the Flying Firemen for quite a few years and yet you make a comment like this. I guess time makes one forget what the edit Flying Circus was really like!!!

[Cat Driver]

Jeez Cat you worked for the Flying Firemen for quite a few years and yet you make a comment like this. I guess time makes one forget what the edit Flying Circus was really like!!!

That is true CLguy, but I at least worked for them on my own terms and made sure I got paid for same.

You are right though the Flying Fireman had more than their share of strange ways to get things done.

I got an e-mail from Andy W. a couple of months ago and he is alive and well and married and flying for an airline in Florida.

By the way I got fired by the Flying Fireman for refusing to help break the pilots union....so I couldn't have been completely without scruples.

[flyinthebug]

Is laying off 2 first officers really worth it to an operator this size? Anyone who has worked for a company with lay offs knows what it does to the morale of employees. I bet this ends up costing them more than it saved them.

I agree Rudy. Not to mention how it will affect the ground crews waiting for a right seat in YPL and YRL etc. I cant imagine they would only lay off two first officers and no one else? Does anyone know?

Fly safe all.

[Doc]

Have to ask where your union dues are going when the company can pull this kind of crap....
Two pc-12 f/o (no bond required for this position) have been with the company for about 2-3 years, they started on the ramp. When their name came up for an upgrade to a right seat 1900 or a caravan captain the two did not have bond money, the company gave those positions to recent 4-6 months hires with a lot less experience than the two, simply cause they had the cash for the bond. This company is pathetic.
I'll agree.....it's pathetic for sure!
Let's see you Wasaya fans justify this kind of BS. Have at 'er.

[Rudy]

Wow.

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

Have to ask where your union dues are going when the company can pull this kind of crap....
Two pc-12 f/o (no bond required for this position) have been with the company for about 2-3 years, they started on the ramp. When their name came up for an upgrade to a right seat 1900 or a caravan captain the two did not have bond money, the company gave those positions to recent 4-6 months hires with a lot less experience than the two, simply cause they had the cash for the bond. This company is pathetic.
I'll agree.....it's pathetic for sure!
Let's see you Wasaya fans justify this kind of BS. Have at 'er.

Nobody needs to justify their choice of employment to you or any other crusty old geezer who thinks he's seen it all. There are a hundred guys like you in this business who talk and talk and talk and don't really contribute anything. Get off your high horse.

[Cat Driver]

Nobody needs to justify their choice of employment to you or any other crusty old geezer who thinks he's seen it all.

Hmmm...crusty old geezer.....

If Doc is a crusty old geezer what would that make me?

[Doc]

Have to ask where your union dues are going when the company can pull this kind of crap....
Two pc-12 f/o (no bond required for this position) have been with the company for about 2-3 years, they started on the ramp. When their name came up for an upgrade to a right seat 1900 or a caravan captain the two did not have bond money, the company gave those positions to recent 4-6 months hires with a lot less experience than the two, simply cause they had the cash for the bond. This company is pathetic.
I'll agree.....it's pathetic for sure!
Let's see you Wasaya fans justify this kind of BS. Have at 'er.

Nobody needs to justify their choice of employment to you or any other crusty old geezer who thinks he's seen it all. There are a hundred guys like you in this business who talk and talk and talk and don't really contribute anything. Get off your high horse.

So, taxidriver....you condone this kind of treatment of your fellow employees? Here are two pilots who worked for the company, kissed ass on the ramp for however long, just to be SHIT on by Wasaya! And YOU are calling ME names? Exactly what would you like me to "contribute"? I'm simply calling it as I see it. Don't like my opinion.....who cares? Your company SCREWED two of your fellow employees....and YOU think it's Okay. End of story.

[Cat Driver]

Doc....

Have I got this right, there were two ramp guys who had been waiting for two to three years to get a right seat and they were passed over by new hires because they could not come up with bond money?

Or is this just a rumor with no fact behind it?

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

Geezer isn't really calling names. I'm just tired of hearing the rumours and suggestions that somehow holding a job with a certain company makes me a bad person, or less of a pilot. People in glass houses...

[Doc]

Geezer isn't really calling names. I'm just tired of hearing the rumours and suggestions that somehow holding a job with a certain company makes me a bad person, or less of a pilot. People in glass houses...

Seriously, no hard feelings. Did I say you were a "bad person"? Did I infer you were "less of a pilot"? I'll admit to dumping on your company. I think it's a sleazy slime pit (my example illustrates that fact in spades?) ....but I didn't dump on you. I run into a lot of your crews. Good folks. All. Your management needs a smack upside the head, though.

Cat, according to my source, these guys worked the ramp, were in fact right seat on the PC12 (guess there's no bond for that), then were passed over for promotions that required money up front, by more junior pilots who had the cash on hand. Kind of gives one a warm fuzzy feeling, don't it?

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

I didn't mean you straight out called me a bad person, its the insinuation that because I choose to work for them that I've sold my soul. Its horseshit. The problem is that there are a lot of young guys that read this website who are asking themselves what they should do to advance their career - whats wrong, whats right - and they don't all have the luxury of being able to pick and choose who they work for. I remember another thread that mentioned a bird in the hand... For sure, the industry needs advocates to stand up and correct the situation, but posting on the internet doesn't do it. At least the Wasaya employees are actively trying to correct the situation. Every time the bond situation is brought up on here, whether you think so or not, you are slagging on your fellow pilots. Rip the company all you want, but leave the grunts out of it - its not their fault.

[Cap'n P8]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. YOU make your decisions and YOU have to live with them. EVERYONE already knows what the situation at Wasaya is. It's been beaten to death here on this forum and I can guarantee you they knew what the scoop was when they took the job. Wasaya has bonds for PPC'd positions. Why would they take a job knowing this and then expect something different?

[Cat Driver]

The problem is that there are a lot of young guys that read this website who are asking themselves what they should do to advance their career - whats wrong, whats right - and they don't all have the luxury of being able to pick and choose who they work for.

What kind of convoluted thinking is that? The internet is the best means of communication the human race has ever had and it gives those new to aviation a place to come and read what the industry has to say about most anything to do with working as a pilot in Canada.

and they don't all have the luxury of being able to pick and choose who they work for.

Are you suggesting that they are forced into working for companies who have less than stellar principles with regard to how they treat their employees?

It's been beaten to death here on this forum and I can guarantee you they knew what the scoop was when they took the job. Wasaya has bonds for PPC'd positions. Why would they take a job knowing this and then expect something different?

What kind of a bond would any company have that prevents someone from qualifying for it, after working for the company for several years?

[Cap'n P8]

Quote:

"What kind of a bond would any company have that prevents someone from qualifying for it, after working for the company for several years?"

What you are really asking is why would they have that kind of bond. The answer is because that's what they have, and every employee is made aware of it from the onset of their employment. Whether it's right or wrong has been beaten to death.

In a nutshell, every PPC'd position is bonded (1 year prorated, 1.5 year for the 748) until you've been with the company as a full time flying pilot for three years. After that there are no bonds anymore, (at least that's what it was like when I was there). It might have changed now for all I know. You might be interested to know that it isn't as much of a stepping stone place as one might imagine. They have quite a few long time employees who will likely stay with the company for the duration of their careers, high 5 figure to low 6 figure salaries go a lot farther in Northern Ontario than in the south.

Next you're probably going to ask why anyone would work in such a terrible place. The answer is great experience on well-maintained machines, with very decent salary, benefits and travel.

As a disclaimer, take everything I've written with a grain of salt. I am almost two years removed from the company, and I left before the union was implemented.

[Just another canuck]

In a nutshell, every PPC'd position is bonded (1 year prorated, 1.5 year for the 748) until you've been with the company as a full time flying pilot for three years

I was under the impression you paid for your first two PPC's... two bonds... then at that point, you now qualify as loyal and don't have to pay for your third.

[xsbank]

Paying money to work is sh*t.

I hope the f*cking government sticks its great unwieldy oar into this stuff and outlaws it. If you know me and I am asking for government intervention then you know how sh*tty I think this situation is.

Just to make myself perfectly clear, bonding someone to stay for a period after the company has put up training money is fair. The only risk if the company goes to the wall is, well, there isn't any.

Paying money up front is total b*ullshit and points out for the entire (aviation) world how useless and second rate the company's management is. No wonder they shoved a union down your throats.

Why don't you Wasaya seniors, those who think its such a great place to work, do something to fix it? Why do you think you got a union anyway? Flash! To improve working conditions! Well? What are you going to do for your junior guys? Don't you think those poor bastards who work the ramp should get your help?

Heroes of The North.

[flyinthebug]

In a nutshell, every PPC'd position is bonded (1 year prorated, 1.5 year for the 748) until you've been with the company as a full time flying pilot for three years

I was under the impression you paid for your first two PPC's... two bonds... then at that point, you now qualify as loyal and don't have to pay for your third.

Thats how it was when I was there. I guess PD`s replacement figures that two F/O salaries is worth the morale of the company? The management there leaves something to be desired..and that has been consistant with this airline since its inception. The good ones dont stay long..The "Boss" makes sure of it! If NW came back..at least hes one of the good guys..But they tie his hands too.

Fly safe all.

[Just another canuck]

Why don't you Wasaya seniors, those who think its such a great place to work, do something to fix it? Why do you think you got a union anyway? Flash! To improve working conditions! Well? What are you going to do for your junior guys? Don't you think those poor bastards who work the ramp should get your help?

In my experience, there wasn't a pilot, junior or senior, that gave a shit about any rampie that worked there. They were treated like useless scum... in fact, I was always told I wasn't a pilot anyway and that the CP and DFO had nothing to do with rampies, as they were employed as just that... rampies. You answered to the Base Manager and that's it.

I'm curious, since the union was brought it, are rampies part of it? Or only once they make the flight line? Also, I wonder if the two poor bastards who are getting laid off are the same ones that got bypassed for not being able to come up with the cash not too long ago???

[Cap'n P8]

It might have been the first two a/c or three years, I don't 100% remember. As far as everyone treating the rampies like shit, I never saw it myself. Mind you I wasn't based in YPL or YRL. I can tell you this, if I ever saw one of the guys I was flying with give them a hard time I would have given them an earful. In YXL the majority of the pilots were always out there helping the rampies load planes and otherwise.

[Cap'n P8]

XS

For clarity's sake, the company didn't bring in the union, the pilots did.

[whiteguy]

It might have been the first two a/c or three years, I don't 100% remember. As far as everyone treating the rampies like shit, I never saw it myself. Mind you I wasn't based in YPL or YRL. I can tell you this, if I ever saw one of the guys I was flying with give them a hard time I would have given them an earful. In YXL the majority of the pilots were always out there helping the rampies load planes and otherwise.

When I was there in the early 90's nobody looked down on anybody. The pilots and ramp guys all worked well together. Not 1 pilot ever treated a ramp guy/girl like s$^t! That was at the YPL base, only base at the time.