Granny Gas

[Cat Driver]

One of the best instruments you can have is a fuel totalizer, they are worth their weight in gold.

The subject of carrying extra fuel is an important one, if you have reason to think you need extra fuel by all means take it.

However it has to be part of the load calculations, putting extra fuel on after the gross weight has been reached is just plain stupid.

[square]

Well let's take a look at the rules, yes. They're rather more detailed than "have an extra 30 min fuel onboard." Don't forget that on top of your min reserve you also require to comply with 602.88 (2) and (5)

(2) No pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall commence a flight or, during flight, change the destination aerodrome set out in the flight plan or flight itinerary, unless the aircraft carries sufficient fuel to ensure compliance with subsections (3) to (5).

(3) An aircraft operated in VFR flight shall carry an amount of fuel that is sufficient to allow the aircraft

(a) in the case of an aircraft other than a helicopter,

(i) when operated during the day, to fly to the destination aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 30 minutes at normal cruising speed, or

(ii) when operated at night, to fly to the destination aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 45 minutes at normal cruising speed; or

(b) in the case of a helicopter, to fly to the destination aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 20 minutes at normal cruising speed.

(4) An aircraft operated in IFR flight shall carry an amount of fuel that is sufficient to allow the aircraft

(a) in the case of a propeller-driven aeroplane,

(i) where an alternate aerodrome is specified in the flight plan or flight itinerary, to fly to and execute an approach and a missed approach at the destination aerodrome, to fly to and land at the alternate aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 45 minutes, or

(ii) where an alternate aerodrome is not specified in the flight plan or flight itinerary, to fly to and execute an approach and a missed approach at the destination aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 45 minutes; or

(b) in the case of a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane or a helicopter,

(i) where an alternate aerodrome is specified in the flight plan or flight itinerary, to fly to and execute an approach and a missed approach at the destination aerodrome, to fly to and land at the alternate aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 30 minutes, or

(ii) where an alternate aerodrome is not specified in the flight plan or flight itinerary, to fly to and execute an approach and a missed approach at the destination aerodrome and then to fly for a period of 30 minutes.

(5) Every aircraft shall carry an amount of fuel that is sufficient to provide for

(a) taxiing and foreseeable delays prior to take-off;

(b) meteorological conditions;

(c) foreseeable air traffic routings and traffic delays;

(d) landing at a suitable aerodrome in the event of loss of cabin pressurization or, in the case of a multi-engined aircraft, failure of any engine, at the most critical point during the flight; and

(e) any other foreseeable conditions that could delay the landing of the aircraft.

Things come up.. like a 50 mile line of thunderstorms to get around, disabled aircraft on the runway, requiring to hold prior to entering a CZ, turning around on your return leg to wait out wx, things like that. It would arguably be illegal to blast off with just an extra 30 min onboard if there were thunderstorms or patchy ceilings <300'.

[yfly]

The subject of carrying extra fuel is an important one, if you have reason to think you need extra fuel by all means take it.

However it has to be part of the load calculations, putting extra fuel on after the gross weight has been reached is just plain stupid.

Absolutely!

[bobcaygeon]

Well you fancy pilot types have it all figured out. One problem though, there is always some that abuse their rights to "fly safe" andf consistently take more fuel. How do you deal with the aviator that consistently takes 20% more fuel than his coworkers (who take safe amounts of fuel)? Most times this aviator will land with the same excess that he left.with. When hedoes burn the extra fuel it is usually because of poor altitude selection. What is your solution?

[Cat Driver]

Well you fancy pilot types have it all figured out.

Fancy pilot?

What is a fancy pilot?

[Osiris]

Well you fancy pilot types have it all figured out. One problem though, there is always some that abuse their rights to "fly safe" andf consistently take more fuel. How do you deal with the aviator that consistently takes 20% more fuel than his coworkers (who take safe amounts of fuel)? Most times this aviator will land with the same excess that he left.with. When he does burn the extra fuel it is usually because of poor altitude selection. What is your solution?

1. Tell the pilot you appreciate his commitment to safety.
2. Explain to the pilot how it makes you feel when he uses more fuel than he reasonably needs to.
3. Invite the pilot to join you in finding a solution that maintains safety without carrying excess fuel.
4. Hugs.

I thought all fancy manager types knew this formula

But why set yourself apart from the majority of 703/704 operators; pull the poor guy into the office and imply that he'll be out of a job and the value of his training bond if he doesn't stop carrying extra gas.

[Pugster]

Well you fancy pilot types have it all figured out. One problem though, there is always some that abuse their rights to "fly safe" andf consistently take more fuel. How do you deal with the aviator that consistently takes 20% more fuel than his coworkers (who take safe amounts of fuel)? Most times this aviator will land with the same excess that he left.with. When hedoes burn the extra fuel it is usually because of poor altitude selection. What is your solution?

Sit him down and discuss it. Have a training captain present to talk about it with you. Explain that his job is not only to do the job safely (#1) but efficiently too (#2). It sounds to me like you've got a Captain that either has good reasons that you may not be considering, or simply doesn't care. If it's the former, great. If it's the latter, it's no different than dealing with a poor or more probably a poorly trained employee in any field.

Why is this such a big deal? Taking more fuel is fine - hell it's a lot better than taking too little - as long as you can provide good reasons for it...and not just base it on a personal hunch.

[SmokinJoe]

How many of you out there use standard pax weights for you W/B? Now if you said I do to that, than how many of you believe your pax actually weight more than the standard? So if you said I do to that also, than how many of you are flying over gross when you have a full load if you pax actually weigh more than the standard? I understand that it's impractiable to weigh each and ever pax boarding our aircraft, but I think that at some point we're all flying over gross wether because of pax that weigh more than the standard or because of the "granny gas" we're loading on board.

[Jastapilot]

What is your solution?

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Edjoocayte da poor guy and mebbe he'll see the Light! dat's right, a gouwd educayshun!

[yfly]

Well you fancy pilot types have it all figured out. One problem though, there is always some that abuse their rights to "fly safe" andf consistently take more fuel. How do you deal with the aviator that consistently takes 20% more fuel than his coworkers (who take safe amounts of fuel)? Most times this aviator will land with the same excess that he left.with. When hedoes burn the extra fuel it is usually because of poor altitude selection. What is your solution?

I am assuming your pilots are light in experience, thus knowledge, and your example needs some coaching as mentioned above. The learning environment and delivery is just as important as the message and I am guessing by your "fancy pilots" comment that your don't foster a particularly positive learning environment. Perhaps a little schooling from his peers would be helpful?

"Most times" he lands with excess? So the rest of the time it proved the right decision. Try comparing his/her fuel burns per sector averages and point out the added operating cost if you have it documented. You should, if you are a "fancy" manager.

Extra fuel is cheaper than a diversion or god forbid, an accident. It opens the doors of options.

Yes, I have been a management pilot for 15 years and a line pilot for 16 more.

[2milefinal]

I understand that it's impractiable to weigh each and ever pax boarding our aircraft, but I think that at some point we're all flying over gross wether because of pax that weigh more than the standard or because of the "granny gas" we're loading on board.

IMHO that is exactly what we should be doing. Standard wieghts .....

The granny gas thing will not change unless someone is willing start going on the ramps and dipping tanks and then handing out fines.

[spaner]

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[Cat Driver]

SMS is the answer.

[Doc]

SMS is the answer.

You sir, have become a cynical old shit!

[spaner]

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[Lost Lake]

Interesting topic with no real solution. Fuel loads are based on a perfect world, which is what dispatch works in. No diversions, no weather issues, no..oops got to go back and pick up/leave the extra bag. Companies make money by filling the aircraft to paper capacity. In a true democratic company, if you tell dispatch you need extra fuel, they should compensate. Otherwise, options are to refuse the mission, or accept it knowing the potential conditions. Part of the captain's responsibilities is decision making. Every flying environment is different.

[Cat Driver]

take out your boys and put them back on, stop crying about the paperwork, if you need it put it on.

Don't ask don't tell, worked for the armed forces for decades...

So a pilot knowingly adds weight to the airplane that puts it over the gross allowable weight.

There is an accident on take off and the airplane is found to be over weight.

How does the don't ask don't tell bit work then?

This whole conversation can be summed up very easily.

The airplane is either within its legal gross weight or it isn't...the final responsibility lies with the PIC.

[spaner]

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[2R]

Some Grannies should have dangerous goods forms, for the Granny gas they emit at altitude


Thank god for the Oxygen mask,i just wish some people would not store their nailclippings in them

[spaner]

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[Donald]

This reminds me of the "minimums" thread.

All the old timers say, "well I used to do that, but it's wrong, so you should not be doing it".

In other words, do as I say, but not as I do.

And don't you dare run out of gas in the mean time...

[Cat Driver]

In other words, do as I say, but not as I do.

You have it a little skewed Donald.

It is do as I say, but not as I "did" when I was learning.

[Doc]

This reminds me of the "minimums" thread.

All the old timers say, "well I used to do that, but it's wrong, so you should not be doing it".

In other words, do as I say, but not as I do.

And don't you dare run out of gas in the mean time...

Do whatever you want Donald. Fill yer boots. We're real frikken sorry we're trying to keep the young ones alive. We're alive.....many are not. So ignore our advice. Fill the fucken tanks, and break every limit in the book. Not like you weren't warned. BTW, when some of us were starting out, we didn't have the benefit of guys with 25,000 hours giving us hints. So go forth and learn everything on your own. Most of you already know everything anyway, so PO

[Donald]

Sorry to ruffle your feathers Doc, seriously. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Curious, how many incidents/accidents out there that can be directly attributed to being overweight by carrying granny gas?

How many incidents/accidents where someone ran out of gas after departing with CARS "legal" fuel?

[Cat Driver]

Are you saying that it is O.K. to fly over the legal weight as long as the over weight is gas by using that flawed logic Donald?